# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/741 "2023-12-24T00:43:37Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > They believe the only reason it didn’t work is because the people they’re reciting their incantations to “violated the law”, “denied them their rights”, etc. It’s never that the sovcit lunatic is, in fact, wrong or did anything at wrong. > > And this is exacerbated by some of those making money off this nonsense just lying. They film themselves doing ten minutes of stupid arguing with the cops about “driving vs travelling” or whatever, but don’t film the end where they finally just show the cop their driver’s license. They show this to the gullible, who think, “Well, it worked for them, I must have just made a mistake…”, and then go out and try it again. I’m wondering why none of those profiteerers has bothered to do up a whole crew of actors with the approperiate props, including police cars in correct livery, to film a “successful sovcit dealing with a traffice stop”. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/742 "2023-12-24T06:23:22Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > the approperiate props, including police cars in correct livery, to film a “successful sovcit dealing with a traffice stop”. Because that shit costs money, and even the “successful” scammers aren’t actually making that much off it. Our biggest Canadian guru mostly just couch surfed and grifted enough to cover his beer tab. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/743 "2023-12-24T07:08:18Z")
I thought the biggest Canadian sovcit guru was that woman calling herself the queen of Canada. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/744 "2023-12-24T07:15:44Z")
Marcel (of the Family) Bessette is a contender as well as Jean-Denis Boudreault (AKA King Regis Lucius of the Sovereign State of Tayos (Formerly, just Quebec). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/745 "2023-12-24T09:19:30Z")
I should know better, but what the hey? “Tayos”? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/746 "2023-12-24T09:23:58Z")
> **[A new hope... - The sovereign State of Tayos](https://state-of-tayos.com/en/home/)** > > Never before in history has the whole world converged so quickly into tyranny as in the times we are living now. For the virtuous people whom are increasingly being persecuted simply for thinking differently than the general world trend, times are... And don’t blame me for the ensuing brain damage! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/747 "2023-12-24T09:55:24Z")
Is bad grammar a Hallmark of SovCits? “Whom are…” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/748 "2023-12-24T09:58:45Z")
‘Ahem, grammar is not a law it’s a statute.’ ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/749 "2023-12-24T10:01:31Z")
“Whom” is proper when it refers to the legal entity, “who” when it refers to the human person. Everyone knows that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/750 "2023-12-24T12:20:07Z")
By the way, one of my hobbies is micronations, but, of course, I’m not a whacked out nutjob who believes they’re legitimately nations. They’re just a bit of entertainment and why not? A little bit of silliness is fine as entertainment. These sovcits, though, are finding out real cops and real judges just aren’t entertaining that silliness. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/751 "2023-12-26T21:31:05Z")
I gather it’s been fairly quiet the last few days in Queen Romana-Land. The most recent doings involved cult members claiming that criminal charges had been or were going to be filed against the horrible people who stalked and harassed Her Majesty recently at the Wal-Mart in Medicine Hat, or maybe that Romana herself would be charged, in which case things could get really ugly. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/752 "2023-12-26T22:34:59Z")
She needs involuntary commitment, as she is a clear danger to others. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/753 "2023-12-26T23:06:41Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > No, it doesn’t work and it won’t, because they refuse to believe that it never works. They just didn’t put the magic words in the right order, or they provided a thumbprint in the wrong colour ink, or they wrote “A4V” on a bill instead of “Accepted For Value,” or somesuch nonsense. This, in a nutshell, is how magical thinking works. It’s not magic that’s false, you just didn’t utter the correct incantation, use the correct components, or do it at the right time. Many of these SovCit people have so much invested in the idea they just can’t let go of it no matter how many times they fail at using it. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/754 "2023-12-27T22:29:50Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Many of these SovCit people have so much invested in the idea they just can’t let go of it no matter how many times they fail at using it. sunk cost fallacy … SovCit, MAGA-crowd, etc… ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2023, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/755 "2023-12-28T13:08:39Z")
Some is certainly sunk cost. A lot more is “I cannot be wrong. I cannot (knowingly) change my mind.” Despite being highly suggestible and leadable which means they’re adept at letting other people change their mind for them. As long as that is unnoticed, it seems an act of supreme independent volition, not an act of supreme followership. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/756 "2023-12-30T11:35:01Z")
Okay, folks. Sit down and buckle your seatbelts. I don’t want to be responsible for anyone’s laughter-induced falling-from-chair injuries. This afternoon, I watched [this sovereign citizen fail at a traffic stop](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u-Jf4hbhQk). The ~~driver~~ traveler insisted he’s a foreign national. When the sergeant appeared, she was quite amenable to that. She asked the sovcit what country he’s a citizen of so she can inform that country’s consulate that he’s being arrested. The reason for the stop, of course, was the sovcit plate on the back of the vehicle. In this particular case, the plates is a Moorish National plate, to wit, [this one](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fc6hvn1sewd681.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D13122dc138e98a82a2272f1f6238677603e6b7f8). You’ll notice that it says “Moroccan Empire” on it. Morocco isn’t an empire; it’s a [kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco). Anyway, here’s more fun. So, let’s delve into the [site prominently shown on the fictitious plate](https://enforcetheconstitution.org/). Say, I want to [“record my Moorish nationality”](https://enforcetheconstitution.org/national-id-and-recording#ae229e50-6b4e-47f9-8369-6829d9123287). What’s the cost now? One must first subscribe to that site. Cost? Free. So far, so good. Next, you must pony up $160, presumably United States dollars. > Our RECORDING SERVICES cost $160 and include the following: > > - Your nationalization documents (‘Legal Notice’ and ‘Judicial Proclamation’) will be printed, signed and sealed by the Office of the Consul General; > > - Your nationalization documents will be filed in the records of Morocco Consular Court and sent to you via priority mail with a filed date stamp; > > - Your nationalization documents will be published on our website for 4 weeks as ‘Public Notice’ and you will receive a receipt via email regarding the publication. And for our friends here in the legal profession, this site does not disappoint. YES! I give you a reference to _Black’s Law Dictionary_: > **Why record in Consular Court and make public?** > > Your ‘Legal Notice’ and ‘Judicial Proclamation’ is a written declaration of your nationality / citizenship. When your written declaration is made on the public record before the world, this act constitutes the first essential of _‘due process of law’_ called “Notice” (see Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th Edition, page 449, **'Due process of law** ’). Okay. I’ve now done all of that stuff, including reciting my mantra (Black’s Law Dictionary, Black’s Law Dictionary, Black’s Law Dictionary). I’ve separated myself from my $160 so that means I’m good to go now. Right? Wrong! Now I need to get myself a Moorish national ID card. Same site, of course; heck, it’s the same page on that site. The cost for this is $150, not including the cost of getting the photo in a turban (for females) or fez (for males). So, I’m now out $310. And what does all that get me? Well, at the very bottom of that page is this fun disclaimer: > The national ID card and nationalization documents **DOES NOT** make you a member of our civic organization and **DOES NOT** oblige the Office of Consul General of Morocco to exercise consular jurisdiction in any case or dispute affecting your rights or property. The rest of the site is some odd self-flagellation, too. They pretend that they’ve been able to get people released from jail. This is utter nonsense, of course. They’re not consular officials who need to be notified of the arrest of one of their citizens because these “Moorish Americans” are, after all American citizens and that outfit is not an actual consulate. There are some amusing pictures with them bandying around the flag of the actual country of Morocco. And the “legal documents” are just affidavits these loons have submitted to the clerk of a real court in the United States for record. They’re meaningless. But, hey, they’re worth $310 (minimum) per disciple for the site owners, right? Sadly, I couldn’t find on that site how much they charge for the “license plate”. But this bit is so golden, I have to quote it again: > The national ID card and nationalization documents **DOES NOT** make you a member of our civic organization and **DOES NOT** oblige the Office of Consul General of Morocco to exercise consular jurisdiction in any case or dispute affecting your rights or property. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/757 "2023-12-31T14:22:53Z")
I’ve seen, and laughed at, a lot of those videos. But one thing I’ve never seen was one where the Traveler says they are not a US citizen and are asked for their proof of legal residence in the US. “got a green card”? No, under arrest for illegal immigration. “got a visa in that Moorish passport”? No, under arrest for improper documentation. If there are videos where this occurred I’d love to see them. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/758 "2023-12-31T14:43:04Z")
Because they would have to be turned over to INS and all you will do is piss off the Feds. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/759 "2023-12-31T15:19:07Z")
Mandatory SDMB nitpickery: to ICE. But yeah I imagine it would not be their job unless it were a fake passport from an actual or claimed foreign country. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/760 "2023-12-31T16:02:08Z")
Which raises an interesting question. One of a us non-SovCits is out driving and gets pulled over. Officer asks “Are you a US citizen?” You truthfully say “Yes, of course.” He says “Prove it.” Gulp. To be sure there’s a sordid history being made right now in this country where brown folks are being challenged in this way by reactionary police forces in reactionary states. But it’s simply not a thing any of us are able to document out in public on an ordinary day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=39)