# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/781 "2023-12-31T21:02:44Z")
Wasn’t asking about citizenship on a traffic stop by local authorities declared illegal due to the abuse by Fightin’ Joe Arpaio? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/782 "2023-12-31T21:05:08Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I grew up 10 miles from the Canadian border so I used to travel there fairly often. Back in those days, though, US citizens didn’t need a passport to cross that border, or vice versa for the Canadians. Didn’t have to drive, could just walk across through a border point. Just another example of how we’re all required to carry more ID than in the past. FYI, five states (Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Vermont and Washington) offer [enhanced drivers licenses](https://www.dhs.gov/enhanced-drivers-licenses-what-are-they) “that provide proof of identity and U.S. citizenship when crossing the U.S. border in a vehicle.” Those near the border can also get a NEXUS card to use when crossing the Canadian border. (And the cost of fifty bucks includes Global Entry and TSA Precheck for less than applying for those otherwise.) ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/783 "2023-12-31T21:24:51Z")
I’m aware I live in Michigan, but I live in West Michigan near Grand Rapids. It would be a long drive in my poor driven into the ground car, it costs more than renewing my DL, and Hubster is not in the right health for that sort of trip. So all in all, it would be a huge waste of time and money to get a passport or enhanced DL. AFAIK, they aren’t supposed to ask that anyway. Of course if you’re driving a crappy enough car they can and will pull you over for nothing to see if you’re legal. Been there done that. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/784 "2023-12-31T21:25:45Z")
Is the fee for the enhanced drivers license different than the fee for a regular one? Because if it’s not, I’d get one, just to have. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/785 "2023-12-31T21:28:02Z")
I think so, though I’d have to check. As it is right now, I skip the SOS and go to the kiosk at Meijer to renew. I don’t know how long they’ll let me, but it’s awesome not to have to go to SOS and wait your turn. ETA: In February, if I wanted to I could get an Enhanced ID for 20.00. That’s two dollars more than if I had to renew my license. That’s because I will be 65 in February. For younger people a new enhanced is 45 as opposed to 25 for a new license. Renews etc. are cheaper, but at about the same ratio. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/786 "2023-12-31T21:29:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Wasn’t asking about citizenship on a traffic stop by local authorities declared illegal due to the abuse by Fightin’ Joe Arpaio? I believe that is true. I don’t have a great deal of confidence, but he was definitely involved in some aggressive racist-motivated police enforcement stuff that got stomped on. Whether that change came from the Phoenix mayor, the AZ state executive or from SCOTUS or who I can’t say without research. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/787 "2023-12-31T21:31:34Z")
I don’t think local police or sheriffs have _ever_ had authority to demand proof of citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/788 "2023-12-31T21:39:48Z")
> [@Sylvanz](#): > > I think so, though I’d have to check. As it is right now, I skip the SOS and go to the kiosk at Meijer to renew. I don’t know how long they’ll let me, but it’s awesome not to have to go to SOS and wait your turn. Googling, in Michigan, the renewal cost for an enhanced drivers license is twenty dollars more than for a regular one. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/789 "2023-12-31T21:41:51Z")
At least in the Soviet of Washington, the [fees](https://dol.wa.gov/driver-licenses-and-permits/driver-licensing-fees#driverlicensingfees) are indeed different: - New license (5 years): $81 standard v $116 EDL - Renewal (6 years): $55 standard v $97 EDL - Renewal (8 years): $73 standard v $129 EDL ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/790 "2023-12-31T21:46:15Z")
Yep, but I could get one for 20 ‘cause I’m gonna’ be old soon. 😉 I would still have to go to the SOS though /whine. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/791 "2023-12-31T21:47:05Z")
Holy shit! That is expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/792 "2023-12-31T22:04:42Z")
No state income tax in Washington so you pay more for state services. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/793 "2024-01-01T04:55:18Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > At least in the Soviet of Washington, the [fees](https://dol.wa.gov/driver-licenses-and-permits/driver-licensing-fees#driverlicensingfees) are indeed different: > > - New license (5 years): $81 standard v $116 EDL > - Renewal (6 years): $55 standard v $97 EDL > - Renewal (8 years): $73 standard v $129 EDL Still cheaper than that $310 I posted above. Of course, those sovcit loons will be paying other fees and fines, too, such as towing fee, storage fee, court costs, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/794 "2024-01-02T00:41:48Z")
This just went through my FB feed. As a point & laugh post, not advertising. [![](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/516A6OAwTQL._AC_SL1030_.jpg) ](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/516A6OAwTQL._AC_SL1030_.jpg) Available on Amazon for your convenience. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/795 "2024-01-02T01:04:10Z")
That looks like a “please make a traffic stop, haul me from this vehicle and arrest me” Plate. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/796 "2024-01-02T01:18:57Z")
Better than the one [I saw](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saw-a-sovcit-licence-plate/980398). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/797 "2024-01-02T01:23:36Z")
And in any case, the authority for police to demand you produce a _ **valid** _ driving license (and not, say, one from Latveria signed by Dr. Doom) is because you are required to present proof that you have been authorized to operate a motor vehicle in the public roads. You can have all your citizenship and residence ducks in a row and you _still_ need to present a validly issued driver’s license and vehicle registration, if stopped in your vehicle on a public street by the deputies. (The use of the license for ID/proof of residence function was tacked on after they already existed, many states did not even have photos on it until the 70s.) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/798 "2024-01-02T02:23:21Z")
One thing this particular sovcit said was kinda true, though maybe not in the way he intended. When told he was going to jail, he said “I’m not going anywhere”, which was true because while he was bloviating about being protected by “Article 4 of the Treaty of Peace and Friendship”, the cops were pushing a stop strip under the vehicle tires, which is always a good idea when dealing with unhinged lunatics! 😉 And **then** he was arrested, along with his passenger. He was convicted on all charges, put on six months probation, then arrested again for violating the terms of probation (AFAICT, every single condition was violated). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/799 "2024-01-02T02:31:06Z")
Meh. It’s not a good try. For your reading pleasure, [here is the (PDF) U.S. General Services Administration Reference Guide for U.S. Government License Plates](https://www.gsa.gov/system/files/Online_Desk_Reference_Guide_US_Government_License_PlatesFINALcorrected.pdf). The reference guide also clearly explains what the license plates look like and how to interpret the license plate prefix codes. Also, a quick skimming of the guide shows vehicles bearing legitimate GSA plates are, get this, _insured_ and _registered_. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/800 "2024-01-02T02:54:09Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > This just went through my FB feed. As a point & laugh post, not advertising. Peace on Earth, Purity of Essence… of our natural bodily fluids. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=41)