# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/861 "2024-02-22T15:35:56Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Unworkable but “Since you declare yourself to not be subject to the Constitution and the law, then you are not protected by the Constitution and the law” should put an end to this. I prefer, “You are declaring in open court that you are rescinding your US citizenship. You are no longer a citizen and we are deporting you to North Korea.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/862 "2024-02-22T15:38:40Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Taking a leaf from the esteemed @running_coach just above, since they are avowedly unbound by the Constitution and subordinate laws, that means that we could indeed build Sheriff Arpaio-style tent camps in the desert to house these bozos _en masse_ cheaply and badly. To heck with that nonsense. Let’s go full _Heinlein_ on them and wall off a section of the country. Send them straight from the courthouse to that place. Once inside, they can operate whatever society they can create. We can even call it Coventry. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I prefer, “You are declaring in open court that you are rescinding your US citizenship. You are no longer a citizen and we are deporting you to North Korea.” There are two issues here. The first, of course, is that renunciation of United States citizenship isn’t done the way those loons believe it is done. One must make such renunciation in front of a United States consular official outside of the United States and prove to said official one has paid their tax obligations. The second is those loons love to call themselve _American nationals_. The funny thing is there really is in United States law American nationals. Those are the residents of American Samoa. Personally, I’d love to see one of those loons try that “I’m not an American citizen, I’m an American national” blarney on a cop in American Samoa. Hey, I’d love to see them try that on a cop right here in China. Now _that_ would be a real hoot. By the way, China’s laws permit the police to hold on offender in “admiistrative detention” for some offenses. Basically, the offender is kept in the cells for a day or up to a few weeks and then released. No need to bother a judge with trivial nonsense. Next time I chat with my brother-in-law (a police inspector in South Korea), I’ll ask him if these loons have gained any traction there. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/863 "2024-02-22T15:44:05Z")
We can use Wyoming. Not like it’s being used for anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/864 "2024-02-22T15:50:12Z")
Hah! Every time I read _Coventry_, Wyoming is exactly where I imagine the place to be located. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/865 "2024-02-22T16:09:00Z")
We should use those grid squares of federal land that are cut off by the surrounding squares of rich-person-owned land. Let THEM enforce the “No corner cutting” rule! ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/866 "2024-02-22T16:15:04Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > There are two issues here. The first, of course, is that renunciation of United States citizenship isn’t done the way those loons believe it is done. One must make such renunciation in front of a United States consular official outside of the United States and prove to said official one has paid their tax obligations. I know. Change the law. > [@Monty](#): > > The second is those loons love to call themselve _American nationals_. The funny thing is there really is in United States law American nationals. Those are the residents of American Samoa. Personally, I’d love to see one of those loons try that “I’m not an American citizen, I’m an American national” blarney on a cop in American Samoa. I know, and other insular territories like Guam and the Marianas. Part of the issue is the cops don’t know these issues. For example, “I’m traveling.” should be met with, “Are you crossing state lines? THAT is the Constitution definition of travelling.” And there is another one, I think it is the “I’m not engaged in commerce” argument which is true … for exactly 3 crimes under the USC so “I’m not in commerce.” should be met with “I am not citing you for …” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/867 "2024-02-22T16:24:45Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > We can even call it Coventry. I get the allusion, but since we’re the Dope and all, I propose we call it “The Cornfield”. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/868 "2024-02-22T16:24:54Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > Taking a leaf from the esteemed @running_coach just above, since they are avowedly unbound by the Constitution and subordinate laws, that means that we could indeed build Sheriff Arpaio-style tent camps in the desert to house these bozos _en masse_ cheaply and badly. > > To heck with that nonsense. Let’s go full _Heinlein_ on them and wall off a section of the country. Send them straight from the courthouse to that place. Once inside, they can operate whatever society they can create. We can even call it Coventry. Aren’t there free capacities at Guantanamo these days? Isn’t that your established gulag for non-American citizens? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/869 "2024-02-22T16:43:42Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Part of the issue is the cops don’t know these issues. For example, “I’m traveling.” should be met with, “Are you crossing state lines? THAT is the Constitution definition of travelling.” - It seems a lot of judges don’t know it either or don’t feel like engaging in a fruitless explanation. Also what is seldom explained is that while there is a _right_ to travel, the _means_ of travel can be regulated. and seldom are their false cites of Supreme Court decisions ever refuted. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/870 "2024-02-22T17:03:57Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I’m curious. How do you deal with them? I’ve watched too many Sov Cit videos and while I admire the patience of most of the judges, I’m convinced they can’t be reasoned with. See post 188. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/871 "2024-02-22T17:22:50Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I don’t know what the legal maximum is for a bench confinement order for contempt of court. Certainly it varies by jurisdiction. Depending on the state and the type of contempt, it can potentially be indefinite (particularly “indirect remedial contempt of court,” in which the contemptee? holds the “keys” to their freedom by complying with whatever legal order they were disobeying which led to their contempt of court). [H. Beatty Chadwick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._Beatty_Chadwick) was once held for 14 years on a contempt of court charge. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/872 "2024-02-22T17:24:58Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > We can use Wyoming. Not like it’s being used for anything else. Hey! It’s being used as my base of operations! Just use the southeast quarter. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/873 "2024-02-22T17:44:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > To heck with that nonsense. Let’s go full _Heinlein_ on them and wall off a section of the country. Send them straight from the courthouse to that place. Once inside, they can operate whatever society they can create. We can even call it Coventry. Sounds good in theory, but then Snake Plissken shows up and all hell breaks loose. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/874 "2024-02-22T20:21:14Z")
_Escape from Freelandia_ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/875 "2024-02-22T21:32:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > There are two issues here. The first, of course, is that renunciation of United States citizenship isn’t done the way those loons believe it is done. One must make such renunciation in front of a United States consular official outside of the United States and prove to said official one has paid their tax obligations. > > I know. Change the law. I’m assuming that [the Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Reduction_of_Statelessness) has something to do with that being easier said than done. > [@](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > The second is those loons love to call themselve _American nationals_. The funny thing is there really is in United States law American nationals. Those are the residents of American Samoa. Personally, I’d love to see one of those loons try that “I’m not an American citizen, I’m an American national” blarney on a cop in American Samoa. > > I know, and other insular territories like Guam and the Marianas. Part of the issue is the cops don’t know these issues. For example, “I’m traveling.” should be met with, “Are you crossing state lines? THAT is the Constitution definition of travelling.” And there is another one, I think it is the “I’m not engaged in commerce” argument which is true … for exactly 3 crimes under the USC so “I’m not in commerce.” should be met with “I am not citing you for …” Of the five populated territories, it is only American Samoa subjected to the “American national” classification; the others get the American citizen treatment. Personally, I don’t see how that complies with the treaty I linked above. Personally, I think the instant the loon begins spouting the sovcit nonsense, the police officer should go straight to arrest for obstruction. But it seems to me LEOs are trained to let people keep talking. That way there’s more evidence connected with the “anything you say may be used in court” proviso. But I do like your take on that commerce bit. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/876 "2024-02-23T02:58:59Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > the police officer should go straight to arrest for obstruction. That does not apply in every state. For example in Colorado obstruction requires violence or the threat of violence. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/877 "2024-02-23T15:24:17Z")
A dedicated prison for all sov cits seems like a potential solution. It’d be run by a company not bound by any state or federal regulations regarding safety, health and living standards. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/878 "2024-02-23T22:29:17Z")
Sounds like a Libertarian Paradise! ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/879 "2024-02-23T23:09:12Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > A dedicated prison for all sov cits seems like a potential solution. > > It’d be run by a company not bound by any state or federal regulations regarding safety, health and living standards. Perhaps tempting, but: We used to call them Sanitariums, Lunatic Asylums, Crazyvilles, looney bins, etc… Really evil places ridden with criminal abuse, sadistic behavior, and/or ignorance of the inmates problems. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/880 "2024-02-24T00:56:59Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > Really evil places ridden with criminal abuse, sadistic behavior, and/or ignorance of the inmates problems. It’s a _feature_, not a _bug_. Coventry is a better way. Then they aren’t “prisoners,” they’re “extra-territorials.” Block off a good sized area of the US which God has forsaken (I suggest southeastern Oregon) with kill-sats and smart mines, then airdrop these idjits inside. Or don’t bother with the kill-sats - just tattoo all of them with something distinctive on their faces so they can be killed with impunity if they ever leave Libertopia. Like any other invasive species. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=45)