# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/81 "2016-10-26T17:46:37Z")
The Sov Cits, in the criminal majesty of the cluelessness of the rank and file and the venal grift of the leaders, unify many of the Straight Dope factions in righteous derision. I’ll grant them that much. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/82 "2016-10-26T17:52:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, that’s the worst thing you can do. No matter how ridiculous a claim is, the judge needs to recognize it and address it. Otherwise you risk a mistrial. This reminds me of Patton Oswalt talking about religion: > [@](#): > > But just because you like something in a book doesn’t mean that you can have the thing you like in the book happen in real life! That’s what crazy people want! I can’t go to the White House with a bunch of Green Lantern comics and go, “I want a Green Lantern ring! I saw it in a book I like! Make the thing in the book I like be here! Now!” I would be justifiably tazed if I did that. Nobody would go, “Hey we gotta respect his beliefs.” > > “You know, you gotta respect everybody’s beliefs!” NO YOU DON’T! That’s what gets us in trouble! Look, you have to ACKNOWLEDGE everyone’s beliefs, but you have to reserve the right to say “That is fucking stupid!” ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/83 "2016-10-26T20:51:11Z")
I spotted this recently, and have been reading it as time permits: [http://www.albertalawreview.com/index.php/ALR/article/view/422/418](http://www.albertalawreview.com/index.php/ALR/article/view/422/418) It’s a paper entitled, “The History of the Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument Phenominon in Canada,” and while it does concentrate on the Canadian aspects, it does look at the history of the movement in the US. Interesting reading! ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/84 "2016-10-26T22:18:37Z")
I did learn one thing from watching SovCit videos. Apparently the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are in the Constitution. It’s in the Declaration of Independence ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/85 "2016-10-26T22:27:51Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I did learn one thing from watching SovCit videos. Apparently the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are in the Constitution. > > It’s in the Declaration of Independence Oh, but the DofI and AofC _inform_ the Constitution. If we have any doubts about what something in the Constitution means, and we are unable to clarify it from The (holy) Federalist Papers, we should cross reference it with those venerable antecedents. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/86 "2016-10-26T22:59:55Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Oh, but the DofI and AofC _inform_ the Constitution. If we have any doubts about what something in the Constitution means, and we are unable to clarify it from The (holy) Federalist Papers, we should cross reference it with those venerable antecedents. But you forget the Constitution also says the Sheriff is the ultimate authority in a County under posse comitatus. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/87 "2016-10-26T23:26:17Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But you forget the Constitution also says the Sheriff is the ultimate authority in a County under posse comitatus. Did you just call me a pussy communist? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/88 "2016-10-26T23:30:51Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Did you just call me a pussy communist? Meow comrade. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/89 "2016-10-27T00:01:31Z")
Arggh, you guys, get a room. And if there will be any grabbing by the das capital, make sure it is all consensual. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/90 "2016-10-27T01:25:48Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I spotted this recently, and have been reading it as time permits: > > [View of The History of the Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument Phenomenon in Canada](http://www.albertalawreview.com/index.php/ALR/article/view/422/418) > > It’s a paper entitled, “The History of the Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument Phenominon in Canada,” and while it does concentrate on the Canadian aspects, it does look at the history of the movement in the US. Interesting reading! A truly hilarious extract from your article: > [@](#): > > David Wynn Miller appears to be the first US guru active in Canada, coordinating his activities with an early Canadian OPCA guru, Filepe Marcel Naudi, a.k.a. “Bruce Stellar.” Miller’s techniques are comparatively uncommon in Canada and are notoriously complex and peculiar, even for this domain. “Millerese” materials use a highly stereotypic and peculiar language structure, “Quantum-Language-Parse-Syntax-Grammar.” Miller himself is a bizarre figure. He introduces himself as “David Wynn Full Colon Miller.” A former machinist and welder, Miller claims to have become the king of Hawaii after he turned Hawaii into a verb. Miller says he is fluent in numerous languages, has an IQ of 200, and that he has not aged since he died and was resurrected at age 25. Miller appears to be the source of the ubiquitous dash colon naming motif. He says this variation on a name transforms a human into a “prepositional phrase,” which is purportedly outside state authority. If I didn’t know better I would swear this stuff was written by Robert Anton Wilson or Douglas Adams. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/91 "2016-10-27T02:00:14Z")
Anyone with a full colon should be in the bathroom, not the courtroom. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/92 "2016-10-27T02:26:24Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Anyone with a full colon should be in the bathroom, not the courtroom. Here, have a [colon full](http://dwmlc.com) of David-Wynn: Miller. After you’re done, you may need a high-fiber [snack](http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/colon-blow/n9822). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/93 "2016-10-27T02:38:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Did you just call me a pussy communist? That’s Cal Worthingtovich. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/94 "2016-10-27T03:51:40Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Here, have a [colon full](http://dwmlc.com) of David-Wynn: Miller. Wearing my amateur psychiatrist’s hat, he’s mentally ill, surely? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/95 "2016-10-27T04:05:26Z")
He is a chef. A word-salad chef. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/96 "2016-10-27T06:44:34Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Here, have a [colon full](http://dwmlc.com) of David-Wynn: Miller. Wow! That’s a whole lot of wacko! ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/97 "2016-10-27T08:32:43Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Here, have a [colon full](http://dwmlc.com) of David-Wynn: Miller. > … > [@Princhester](#): > > * * * > > Wearing my amateur psychiatrist’s hat, he’s mentally ill, surely? It reminds me of the old timecube site, which certainly had to be the product of mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/98 "2016-10-27T08:45:22Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > That’s Cal Worthingtovich. And his dog spot. ---
**Author:** ![bleach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bleach/32/3106_2.png) [@bleach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bleach)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/99 "2016-10-27T08:48:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Meow comrade. See, this is how you create joinder. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/100 "2016-10-27T08:53:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I would, but I don’t wish to create joinder with you. I don’t know – there are some SovCit’s in videos that I’d enjoy creating joinder with, perverted mind that I have. 🙂 > [@davidm](#): > > If you listen to the very end, the judge mentions that several years ago some sovereign citizens posted a $100 million judgement against him on his door. I have to wonder if they truly believed that they could collect on it. Not really. But they also try to find ways to use the system they reject to hurt their enemies. Like they could report this ‘fine’ as a bad debt on the Judge’s credit report, which he might then have to make significant effort to correct. Or when the get fines, or their house gets repossessed for failing to pay taxes, they will file a 1099 tax form reporting that fine or property value as income to the judge or the officer that seized the property. And since the IRS computers didn’t know these people were nuts, it accepted that form, and months later the person would get the form letter from the IRS saying they failed to report that income, and so they owe X dollars in additional income tax, plus appropriate penalties & interest. Again, that person would then have to go thru the expense & effort of correcting the IRS records. (I think the IRS has caught onto this tactic now, and has ways of dealing with it. But early on, there were some judges/officers who had some significant problems over this.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=6)