# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1121 "2025-04-19T15:40:02Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Would that sympathy extend to a sov cit whose car crashed into yours, and having to pay a huge repair bill because the sov cit lacked mandated insurance, believing that “maritime law” didn’t apply to “a person of the land”? If you go to YouTube, you can find several videos of SovCits and their encounters with both law enforcement and judges. Maybe I’m just a bleeding heart, but sometimes I can’t help but sympathize with a bunch of people tripping over their own dicks. Many of these people have relatively minor problems, but they just make it worse for themselves even in the many situations where the judge or law enforcement gives them ample opportunity to get with the program. But you’re right, they can be dangerous. A little over a decade ago, the SovCits had a happy of filing liens on property causing confusion, stress, and financial harm. It’s not that hard to file a lien, and the SovCit would file them against public officials they didn’t like. There are also other scams, including identity theft, pyramid schemes, defrauding the government, etc., etc. And let’s not forget the threat of violence which is usually directed at government officials and law enforcement. Like I said, I do sympathize with them sometimes, and I will admit to being entertained by their antics, but they’re dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2025, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1122 "2025-04-19T15:45:11Z")
Nowhere did I say I approve of their tactics or their underlying assumptions that they are special or enlightened or that they have no obligations to society at large. I am saying that I can understand feeling that the government is illegitimate, corrupt and acting outside its authority because we are now watching it in real time. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2025, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1123 "2025-04-19T16:29:23Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Imagine if instead of standing up to the British, the founding fathers of the US just declared that the Magna Carta was written on the wrong kind of paper You got it all wrong. It needed to gave gold fringe around it. > [@Odesio](#): > > Like I said, I do sympathize with them sometimes, and I will admit to being entertained by their antics, but they’re dangerous. As I’ve said before, they want to live outside the law? Let them be outlaws in the original sense of the word. Anybody who wants to can steal or break their stuff, injure or even kill them with no response whatsoever from the police who have no jurisdiction over them or the admiralty courts they hold in disdain. The magic words have no effect on a gang of thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2025, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1124 "2025-04-19T16:36:36Z")
I refuse to have any sympathy for SovCits because thet refuse to even read their own sources and just blindly echo the script. Here just one example: when demanding to know jurisdiction, SovCits claim that under the 6th Amendment there are two jurisdictions - common and maritime/admiralty. Here is the 6th Amendment > In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. Please tell me how you can make your “There are two types of jurisdiction.” argument if you have actually read the amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2025, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1125 "2025-04-19T17:15:28Z")
They’re talking about the _secret_ 6th amendment that no one can see with mortal eyes, but which every police officer will follow if someone refers to it, while crossing their toes and blinking in Morse code ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2025, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1126 "2025-04-19T17:21:17Z")
> [@Toxgoddess](#): > > I am saying that I can understand feeling that the government is illegitimate, corrupt and acting outside its authority because we are now watching it in real time. Now, see, this is where sympathy goes too far. What we’re watching in real time was supported by other people feeling the government was illegitimate, corrupt, and acting outside its authority. And those same people turned right around and said it was ok when they did it. It’s a common feeling for various reasons. The SovCits take it to another level of batshittery and assholery. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2025, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1127 "2025-04-19T17:22:26Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, Has any court ever ruled on just what “speedy” means? Can someone petition to have charges dropped because the system failed to set a trial date within a certain limit? A year and a day maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2025, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1128 "2025-04-19T19:27:22Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Has any court ever ruled on just what “speedy” means? Yes. I don’t know it off of the top of my head but I’m sure someone here does. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2025, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1129 "2025-04-19T19:46:06Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > What we’re watching in real time was supported by other people feeling the government was illegitimate, corrupt, and acting outside its authority. And those same people turned right around and said it was ok when they did it. Exactly. The SovCit types are in your government now. They’re in the Trump administration. Project 2025 is very evocative of SovCit thought. The “alternate slate of electors” shit they tried to pull back in 2020 was like SovCit magical thinking. DOGE trying to destroy the government are the ones acting with the belief that the government and its employees are illegitimate. If you feel a kinship with them you might as well be a Trump supporter. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2025, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1130 "2025-04-20T00:43:29Z")
There is a right to have a case dismissed for failure to comply with speedy trial deadlines. This can be with or without prejudice. With prejudice means it’s over and done; the person can’t be prosecuted for the conduct charged. Without means that person can be charged in a new case for the same matters. I proofread for the court reporters a fair amount of pretrial hearings in the Federal District Court and one thing that’s always addressed is whether there should be an extension of the Speedy Trial deadline. Normally both sides agree to it since they need to do further pretrial prepataion. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2025, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1131 "2025-04-20T00:50:56Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Has any court ever ruled on just what “speedy” means? Can someone petition to have charges dropped because the system failed to set a trial date within a certain limit? The State of Nebraska just had its case dismissed for lack of speedy trial reasons. > **[Judge dismisses felony charge against former state historical society director](https://www.1011now.com/2025/01/22/judge-dismisses-felony-charge-against-former-state-historical-society-director/)** > > A judge ruled late Tuesday that prosecutors had waited too long before bringing former History Nebraska director Trevor Jones to trial and dismissed the felony theft charge he faced. It seems that trial hadn’t started within six months of being bound over to district court (minus exclusions). ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2025, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1132 "2025-04-20T02:58:10Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Has any court ever ruled on just what “speedy” means? Unfortunately, there is one set of rules for people with money and another for those without. Fulton County (Atlanta, GA) has a huge problem with overcrowded jails and people locked up more months and months, sometimes over a year, without [being indicted](https://www.11alive.com/article/news/investigations/purgatory-hundreds-of-unconvicted-defendants-spend-months-in-dangerous-fulton-jail-system-awaiting-formal-charges-indictment-unindicted-rice-street/85-41277629-712b-47ef-8c93-9489d651271c). > [@](#): > > The Fulton County detention system is a jail, not a prison, meaning the vast majority of inmates have not yet been convicted of the crime they’re accused of. > > Those who remain inside its walls are typically there either because their bond has been denied or, like Gordon, they can’t afford to pay it. > > He was booked in October of 2021 on a single second degree burglary charge, according to the Fulton County Jail’s online database. His bond was listed at $200, but he couldn’t pay it. Almost two years later, he was indicted on the burglary charge as well as a trespassing charge and a theft by taking charge. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2025, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1133 "2025-04-20T21:11:40Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > They have their own movie! You had me worried there for a second. At first I thought that it might be one of those right wing Indie movies, like “God’s not Dead”. In which the sovereign Citizen is the hero, who wins in the end. Instead its seems they make it pretty clear that the soverign citizens are dangerously deluded. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1134 "2025-04-30T16:23:27Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > The SovCit types are in your government now. They’re in the Trump administration. Project 2025 is very evocative of SovCit thought. You said it better than I. “Who does this sound like? Who doesn’t think that laws apply to them? hmmm…” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1135 "2025-04-30T16:39:54Z")
The difference between Trump and SovCits is that Trump loves gold fringed flags, [![](https://people.com/thmb/-vp5UP58xGpGSavYHUqUMGDyPik=/1500x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():focal(774x0:776x2)/trump-flag-hug-2000-fa8c93def89d4100b1a0877ff63f39a3.jpg) ](https://people.com/thmb/-vp5UP58xGpGSavYHUqUMGDyPik=/1500x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():focal(774x0:776x2)/trump-flag-hug-2000-fa8c93def89d4100b1a0877ff63f39a3.jpg) maybe a tad too much, [![](https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/40a/3b9/b22ae3001f142a69a0b671243386797f15-29-president-trump-american-flag-cpac-20.rsocial.w1200.jpg) ](https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/40a/3b9/b22ae3001f142a69a0b671243386797f15-29-president-trump-american-flag-cpac-20.rsocial.w1200.jpg) How do you say 'NO MEANS NO!" in vexillology? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1136 "2025-04-30T16:42:38Z")
An interesting SovCit, as SovCits go, was on “On Patrol: Live” this past weekend. Hit all the high points: Florida (IIRC) woman – excuse me, “entity” – “traveling”, “maritime law”, employed as a “trustee”, arrested for a traffic violation. None of the officers present could make head or tails of what she was saying. She was pretty civil about the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1137 "2025-05-01T06:56:03Z")
These dumbasses are just so totally brainwashed! Incidentally – no connection at all – but tell me again how a low-intelligence vindictive moron like Trump became president of the USA? 🙄 [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/gCTTxOl_G2A/maxresdefault.jpg "No-Nonsense Cops Give Sovereign Citizen a Reality Check") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCTTxOl_G2A) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1138 "2025-05-01T13:36:53Z")
Brainwashing is easy; it takes shorter than we thought. Conversely, fighting ignorance is hard; it takes longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1139 "2025-05-01T13:41:08Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Brainwashing is easy; I don’t think it’s brainwashing as much as, “I want this to be true, therefore it’s true.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1140 "2025-05-01T13:43:38Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > These dumbasses are just so totally brainwashed! > > Incidentally – no connection at all – but tell me again how a low-intelligence vindictive moron like Trump became president of the USA? 🙄 It was the result of a cult following, similar to the process whereby loons decided that Romana Didulo is [the Queen of Canada](https://thewalrus.ca/queen-of-canada/), only on a larger scale.. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=58)