# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2025, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1421 "2025-07-29T21:19:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > There are innumerable examples of crimes being thwarted or criminals apprehended because experience/instinct showed there was something “off” about a person’s behavior. There are also many examples of police experience/instinct feeling there is something “off” about a person’s behavior, where no crime is thwarted (or had been committed) because said officer doesn’t understand how autistic people behave. And if you were close to and love such a person, you might be a little less enthused at the prospect of a trigger-happy cop deciding to detain your loved one based on that suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2025, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1422 "2025-07-29T21:32:01Z")
“The suspect looked odd so I had a suspicion” does not reasonable articulable suspicion make. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2025, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1423 "2025-07-29T21:35:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Your cite confirms @Saint_Cad’s statement that the detained motorist does not have their privilege against self-incrimination impaired. That is, you do not have to answer any questions from the police. > > What your cite does say is that an ordinary traffic stop does not require police to inform the motorist of their rights. Because it’s not enough pressure to impair them. Police are free to ask questions and the motorists may choose to answer, but it is not required. There are a bunch of different things being muddled here. The ruling I cited confirms my earlier statement that a routine traffic stop is not a custodial situation and Miranda rights don’t need to be asserted. But there’s also a really important difference between actions motivated by distinctly recognized legal rights and those motivated by the mendacious self-interest of criminals. I’ve watched hundreds of police bodycam videos (one of my guilty pleasures) and when someone is arrested, placed into a squad car, and advised of their Miranda rights and they refuse to answer questions, the officer just says, “OK”, and slams the door in their face. But when it’s a routine traffic stop and some jackass refuses to answer any questions, they are deemed “uncooperative” (or sometimes deemed “another SovCit here”) and backup is called. Almost invariably the jackass gets arrested because they cross some other line – failing to produce required documents, failing to ID, failing to exit the vehicle. So, like it or not, there may not be case law requiring a driver pulled over to answer police questions as a matter of law, but there are strong pragmatic reasons why they should. And that’s not a violation of anyone’s civil liberties; on the contrary, it’s part of how we investigate crimes and try to uphold a law-abiding society. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2025, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1424 "2025-07-29T21:48:09Z")
That’s how the system works. You have the right to refuse to talk to cops. If you refuse to talk to them, they have the right to arrest you, but even then they don’t have the right to force you to answer any questions. Obviously, in most cases the prudent choice will be to talk to them, unless you know they’re going to arrest you anyway, in which case keeping your mouth shut will be the prudent move so as not to further incriminate yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2025, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1425 "2025-07-29T22:06:07Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The explicit wording of the original formulation is intended to protect the accused from being compelled to testify against themselves in a criminal trial, Specifically, it was to ban a once-favorite trick of English prosecutors of forcing a defendant into a situation where they would have to either incriminate themselves or commit perjury. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2025, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1426 "2025-07-29T22:10:24Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > That doesn’t seem to be what **[Berkemer v. McCarty (1980)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkemer_v._McCarty)** concluded. In particular, the following (emphasis mine): Did you notice this bit on that page about a _45-year-old_ case? > Superseded by [Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada) (in part) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2025, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1427 "2025-07-29T23:16:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Saint\_Cad: You’re OK with cop being able to stop people…walking down a street in a suspicious manner… > > Yes. Of course, but they should not be able to threaten or actually arrest people on obstruction for not answering their questions. And I believe cops should be required to answer yes or no to “Am I being detained?” or “Am I free to go?” And again, they need to have RAS to demand ID. I see videos where cops say they have to see ID for their report. Nope, they don’t **have** to see it legally. A lot of this boils down to I don’t have to give up my rights for the cops convenience/power trip. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1428 "2025-07-30T00:37:38Z")
“You busted him because he _looked_ dirty? Psychic doesn’t cut it, Callahan.” paraphrased from a half-remembered Eastwood movie. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1429 "2025-07-30T04:21:12Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > You have the right to refuse to talk to cops. If you refuse to talk to them, they have the right to arrest you, but even then they don’t have the right to force you to answer any questions. In what state is not answering police questions a crime? They may have the **power** to arrest you but that does not mean they have the right to if you did not commit a crime. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Obviously, in most cases the prudent choice will be to talk to them, Do we need to yet again link to the video, never talk to cops? OK, [here we go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&t=858s&ab_channel=RegentUniversitySchoolofLaw). ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1430 "2025-07-30T05:52:02Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And I believe cops should be required to answer yes or no to “Am I being detained?” or “Am I free to go?” I can’t count how many bodycam videos I’ve watched, and I have never seen any police officer refuse to answer that question. After repetitive questions from belligerent drunks, they might eventually resort to “I’ve already told you three times”. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > > > Obviously, in most cases the prudent choice will be to talk to them, > > Do we need to yet again link to the video, never talk to cops? OK, [here we go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&t=858s&ab_channel=RegentUniversitySchoolofLaw). This particular law professor sounds like something of an extremist nut who’s probably spawned a lot of SovCits due to his internet ravings. Wikipedia significantly notes that he’s walked back some of his ravings: “ **In 2016, Duane clarified that his advice does not extend to routine traffic stops** ”. Hey, here’s dude who refuses to answer questions. Fair? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Kr6vzEV0cWU/maxresdefault.jpg "Street Fight Exposes Suspect's Darker Plan") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr6vzEV0cWU) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1431 "2025-07-30T06:21:45Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I can’t count how many bodycam videos I’ve watched, and I have never seen any police officer refuse to answer that question. Apparently you have trouble counting to zero because that’s how many video you must have watched. There are a ton of videos where cops sidestep the question with, “I’m just asking you some questions.” or “Why don’t you want to answer my questions?” I bet you claim no cop has threaten to arrest someone for trespassing for standing on a public sidewalk or illegally entering a house without a warrant. If you really want to see videos of cops acting bad, watch some Youtube videos from the [Lackluster Channel](https://www.youtube.com/@LackLusterMedia) then come back and claim cops don’t do those things. > [@wolfpup](#): > > This particular law professor sounds like something of an extremist nut who’s probably spawned a lot of SovCits due to his internet ravings. You missed the part at the end where the cop that speaks after him says everything he said is right. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Wikipedia significantly notes that he’s walked back some of his ravings: “ **In 2016, Duane clarified that his advice does not extend to routine traffic stops** ”. Did you read his book? Because I did. And he very specifically states that traffic stops are the one exception to his rule because it is possible to talk yourself out of a ticket. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Hey, here’s dude who refuses to answer questions. Fair? Yes because _again_ in the United States [you do not have to answer police questions](https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-when-encountering-law-enforcement-questioning) except in the few exceptions mentioned. At this point, you are just being willfully ignorant as to the law … just like a SovCit. Do you believe that in the United States, people should have to answer questions. Do you refuse to accept that there is a right to remain silent short of arrest? Do you believe police at ethically and legally in all encounters with the public? Are you even going to bother to watch any of the Lackluster videos? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1432 "2025-07-30T06:55:37Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > I can’t count how many bodycam videos I’ve watched, and I have never seen any police officer refuse to answer that question. > > Apparently you have trouble counting to zero because that’s how many video you must have watched. I’ve watched literally hundreds. What I mostly see is police officers with far more patience than I would ever have, dealing with many varieties of SovCits and other assorted entitled assholes. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Do you believe that in the United States, people should have to answer questions. “Have to?” Nope. But if they’re found in incriminating circumstances, it might behoove them to do so. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Do you refuse to accept that there is a right to remain silent short of arrest? Sure. Though, anecdotally, based on viewing a few hundred police bodycam videos, acting like an uncooperative jackass usually leads to arrest for other reasons, but reasons related to the deluded psychology of the suspect believing themselves to either be above the law, or protected by some bizarre misunderstanding of the law. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Do you believe police at ethically and legally in all encounters with the public? (I assume “police at ethically” is a typo for “police act ethically”.) No, I don’t make any such assumption. My assumption is that in this 21st century, the impetus of civil rights reforms, police training, and bodycam recordings, the vast majority of police do, in fact, act ethically. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Are you even going to bother to watch any of the Lackluster videos? No, I’m not. I don’t need to watch a channel dedicated to “police behaving badly” because I know it’s a reality. But it’s a tiny fraction of the reality, whereas high rates of crime are a major factor that victimize millions of people, and many have to live with it, or with its consequences, on an ongoing basis. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1433 "2025-07-30T12:34:02Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > But it’s a tiny fraction of the reality, whereas high rates of crime are a major factor that victimize millions of people, and many have to live with it, or with its consequences, on an ongoing basis. and the percent of citizens who are violent criminals are a tiny fraction of the population. The police can start of being polite to drivers because the vast majority of drivers are reasonable people. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1434 "2025-07-30T14:07:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > In what state is not answering police questions a crime? They may have the **power** to arrest you but that does not mean they have the right to if you did not commit a crime. Not answering questions, per se, isn’t a crime. If (they decide) they have RAS, they can arrest you. These videos all seem to feature people who escalate from not answering questions to disobeying lawful orders, for which they then get arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1435 "2025-07-30T14:29:53Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > These videos all seem to feature people who escalate from not answering questions to disobeying lawful orders, for which they then get arrested. Like wolfpup, that’s selective viewing. I have seen many where police abuse their power when a person simply refuses to answer questions. I link to a channel that is full of videos that show that. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1436 "2025-07-30T14:49:51Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I can’t count how many bodycam videos I’ve watched, and I have never seen any police officer refuse to answer that question. [Here ya go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frJuE6mrReE&ab_channel=LackLuster). Cop refuses to answer the question **four times** in the first 30 seconds. So now will you admit it happens or more of your willful confirmation bias? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1437 "2025-07-30T16:04:04Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The police can start of being polite to drivers because the vast majority of drivers are reasonable people. And the vast majority of police are polite and reasonable people, as shown in every one of these videos. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1438 "2025-07-30T16:17:58Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > I can’t count how many bodycam videos I’ve watched, and I have never seen any police officer refuse to answer that question. > > [Here ya go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frJuE6mrReE&ab_channel=LackLuster). Cop refuses to answer the question **four times** in the first 30 seconds. So now will you admit it happens or more of your willful confirmation bias? Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick! First of all, from what I can see those are not traffic stops, they’re sobriety checkpoints. There’s only one question of interest at a sobriety checkpoint, and that’s whether the driver has been drinking. The constant yammering of “am I free to go?” appears to be a trick question from self-styled “constitutional lawyers” who are hell-bent on challenging the fundamental legality of checkpoints, because if the answer is “no”, they can gleefully upload their dashcam video to show that they’ve been “unlawfully detained for no reason”. I also note that these belligerent assholes not only refuse to answer the question about drinking, but some of then refuse to roll the window down more than a crack, making it more difficult if not impossible for the officer to detect the smell of alcohol. All in the interest of creating a dashcam video that they can upload to your beloved “police behaving badly” website and score brownie points. And if they **have** been drinking (we’ll never know) these belligerent SovCit assholes are a hazard on the road. Call me crazy, but my approach is to not drink and drive, and if a police officer asks me if I’ve had anything to drink, I can honestly and cordially say “no” and be on my way. What a concept! There is indeed a lesson to be learned here. It’s that police officers aren’t paid enough for the crap they have to put up with from SovCits and self-styled “constitutional lawyers”. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1439 "2025-07-30T16:42:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > No, I’m not. I don’t need to watch a channel dedicated to “police behaving badly” because I know it’s a reality. But it’s a tiny fraction of the reality, whereas high rates of crime are a major factor that victimize millions of people, and many have to live with it, or with its consequences, on an ongoing basis. I have much less faith in the cops than you do, but I agree that watching such videos wouldn’t be a productive use of your time. Clearly both sides of the argument can muster a huge number of YouTube videos supporting their thesis, so the posting of such videos doesn’t really constitute a meaningful “cite”, just a source of entertainment. We can use these videos to disprove the hypothesis that police _never_ abuse their power, but not to establish _how frequently_ it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1440 "2025-07-30T16:59:33Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > You have the right to refuse to talk to cops. If you refuse to talk to them, they have the right to arrest you, but even then they don’t have the right to force you to answer any questions. Obviously, in most cases the prudent choice will be to talk to them This Hobson’s Choice reminds me of the widely abused “implied consent” laws. For example, you don’t “_have_” to submit to a search before boarding an airplane; but if you don’t you’re not permitted to board. **They:** “It’s not a law, it’s the airline’s policy.” **You:** “Fine, I’ll find an airline that doesn’t make me submit to a search!” **They:** “They all do, it’s required by federal aviation laws.” **You:** “So it IS a law, in violation of constitutional search and seizure guarantees!” **They:** “No, because it’s the airline doing the search, not the government.” **You:** “At the federal government’s orders!” **They:** “Look, shut up and do what you’re told peasant!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=73)