# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1461 "2025-07-30T20:46:13Z")
You know I try to be legal, not do illegal things _because_ I prefer to be unapproached by police and questioned. I have insurance, an up to date plate, a current drivers license in my name that has never been impounded. In a sobriety checkpoint everyone goes through the line and cops, hopefully clear the drunk drivers off the road. Saving lives. It’s irritating. It slows down your travel. But I like to think, in a small part, a life was saved by my 10 minutes in going through the line. Sov-cits can suck eggs. They hurt everyone. They are not doing anything but tryna stick it to the _man_! I’ve seen some of the videos. They are cleverly edited and curated to make the cops look bad. Why else would they film it and post it on YouTube. Must get those clicks and likes. I don’t have much faith they are anything but entertainment. There are reasons there are rules, laws and requirements, folks. I don’t like paying taxes, but I do. I won’t pretend I’m thinking about _the greater good,_ when I write the checks. That’s what it is for, though. My wise Daddy said about getting stopped by police; be polite, be legal and if a citation is issued, take your medicine and go. If you are wrongly cited, go to court and tell it to the judge. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1462 "2025-07-30T20:52:46Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The other question is what the hell a driver refusing to answer a police officer’s question about whether or not they’ve been drinking does to support the cause of civil rights. Is a drunk driver refusing to acknowledge his drunkenness now the new Rosa Parks? I think I’m unclear on your position here. Are you saying drivers _shouldn’t_ have the right to refuse to answer questions, or are you just saying that people who choose to exercise that right are generally assholes? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1463 "2025-07-30T20:56:21Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It would contradict a claim that I lived in a perfect, flawless society. While it _would_ also contradict that claim, but the one I’m _actually_ contradicting is this load of horseshit: > [@](#): > > I live in a relatively peaceful society where citizens respect the police and the police respect citizens, who don’t go out of their way to antagonize them. Also: > [@wolfpup](#): > > That doesn’t contradict what I said, which I can attest through lived experience. Oh, well, if we’re going off “lived experience,” then there’s absolutely no problem with US cops, who are uniformly polite and fair, and often merciful. At least in _my_ “lived experience.” And if the “lived experience” of a mildly affluent White man isn’t determinative of the entire American police force, what kind of society are we even living in? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1464 "2025-07-30T21:07:07Z")
Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1465 "2025-07-30T21:08:38Z")
Well, I’m not gonna bother with this thread anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1466 "2025-07-30T21:16:51Z")
What were you expecting from a thread about delusional people living in their own fantasy world? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1467 "2025-07-30T21:44:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > It would contradict a claim that I lived in a perfect, flawless society. > > While it _would_ also contradict that claim, but the one I’m _actually_ contradicting is this load of horseshit: > > > [@](#): > > > > I live in a relatively peaceful society where citizens respect the police and the police respect citizens, who don’t go out of their way to antagonize them. “Horseshit”? No, three-quarters of a century of lived experience is not “horseshit”. And it’s not just my own experience. My son, in his teenage years, was pretty rambunctious and had a few run-ins with the police. Always amicable, never arrested, never in handcuffs. A peaceful society. Lived experience. Police start to get aggressive in direct response to the aggressiveness of the public that they have to deal with. Like our friend @Saint_Cad and his fellow SovCits. > [@Miller](#): > > Oh, well, if we’re going off “lived experience,” then there’s absolutely no problem with US cops, who are uniformly polite and fair, and often merciful. At least in _my_ “lived experience.” And if the “lived experience” of a mildly affluent White man isn’t determinative of the entire American police force, what kind of society are we even living in? Now that there was some **real** bullshit. > **[Douglas Todd: Canadian cops far less likely to kill, or be killed, than U.S....](https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-canadian-cops-far-less-likely-to-kill-or-be-killed-than-u-s-counterparts)** > > Analysis: Canadian police are often accused of using excessive force, but a U.S. officer is five times more likely than a Canadian cop to shoot and kill. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1468 "2025-07-30T21:58:24Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Now that there was some **real** bullshit. Cites don’t matter. I’ve got _lived experience!_ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1469 "2025-07-30T22:05:23Z")
My post is my cite! (the not-so-dearly-departed **Aldeberaan** ) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1470 "2025-07-30T22:09:33Z")
> Analysis: Canadian police are often accused of using excessive force Gotta love when the quote box eviscerates the point your trying to make with it! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1471 "2025-07-30T23:40:26Z")
NM. Long rambling story that doesn’t go anywhere. Don’t post drunk, kids ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1472 "2025-07-30T23:40:41Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Like our friend @Saint_Cad and his fellow SovCits. Sovereign citizens try to assert non-existent rights or rights they don’t have. Saint\_Cad is talking about rights he actually does have. Do you see the difference? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1473 "2025-07-30T23:54:38Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The salient question is _A_ salient question, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1474 "2025-07-31T00:09:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > It would contradict a claim that I lived in a perfect, flawless society. > > While it _would_ also contradict that claim, but the one I’m _actually_ contradicting is this load of horseshit: > > > [@](#): > > > > I live in a relatively peaceful society where citizens respect the police and the police respect citizens, who don’t go out of their way to antagonize them. > > Also: > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > That doesn’t contradict what I said, which I can attest through lived experience. > > Oh, well, if we’re going off “lived experience,” then there’s absolutely no problem with US cops, who are uniformly polite and fair, and often merciful. At least in _my_ “lived experience.” And if the “lived experience” of a mildly affluent White man isn’t determinative of the entire American police force, what kind of society are we even living in? At the risk of doxxing @wolfpup, I’m gonna clarify that they’re in Canada. This is getting silly. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1475 "2025-07-31T00:33:17Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > At the risk of doxxing @wolfpup, I’m gonna clarify that they’re in Canada. Yeah, I’m aware. Why did you think my first response to him was a link to a story about _Canadian_ police brutality? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1476 "2025-07-31T00:36:33Z")
I’m not sure how big you think Canada is. Canada has a smaller population than the U.S., but it’s still large enough that one man and his son don’t represent the full spectrum of police interactions across the entire country. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1477 "2025-07-31T02:06:44Z")
Love how you clipped out the portion that said “but, a US officer is far more likely…” Yeah, real clever. We all saw it. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1478 "2025-07-31T02:20:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > > > At the risk of doxxing @wolfpup, I’m gonna clarify that they’re in Canada. > > Yeah, I’m aware. Why did you think my first response to him was a link to a story about _Canadian_ police brutality? Fortunately, in the entire history of the United States, there has never been any sort of conflict between Native Americans and European settlers. And even if there had been (there wasn’t) there’s certainly no police brutality in the US **today**! This is all because @Saint_Cad and his SovCit buddies courageously refuse to answer any questions put to them by police during a traffic stop, thus upholding everyone’s constitutional freedoms. The above is just a quick summary for those who haven’t been following the thread train as it derails and flies off the bridge into the chasm below. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1479 "2025-07-31T04:03:25Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Fortunately, in the entire history of the United States, there has never been any sort of conflict between Native Americans and European settlers. > > And even if there had been (there wasn’t) there’s certainly no police brutality in the US **today**! Some day, I will stop being surprised by how fucking stupid you are. Today is not that day. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1480 "2025-07-31T04:20:28Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Yeah, real clever. Yeah, because the full title of the citation wasn’t the point. The point was wolfpup’s ability to make an argument that contained, not one, but two logical fallacies at the same time. A combination of tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy) and the fallacy of relative privation (appeal to worse problems). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=75)