# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1481 "2025-07-31T14:40:18Z")
So to clarify wolfpup’s position if you missed it Invoking your legal rights when questioned by police = you are a sovereign citizen. So wolfpup, you claim I am a sovereign citizen even though I 1. Believe if you are in the United States and not a diplomat you need to follow the law. 2. Show my license, registration and insurance card to police when stopped while driving. 3. Actually know the right to travel has nothing to do with driving a car within a state. 4. Know the 6th Amendment does not claim there are two jurisdictions: common law and admiralty law. 5. Do not claim code and/or statutes are not law. 6. Do not claim that for a crime there must be a human victim. 7. Do not claim the person Saint\_Cad is separate from the strawman saint\_cad So what is your definition of a sovereign citizen? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1482 "2025-07-31T16:13:01Z")
Someday you might stop trying to make an argument through an idiotic example that’s completely irrelevant to the topic, but that you imply defines an entire society about which you obviously know nothing. And then descending into juvenile insults when called on it. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So what is your definition of a sovereign citizen? You claimed it was “smart” to answer a police officer’s question about drinking by repeatedly squawking “am I free to go?” like a deranged parrot. You at least share with sovcits the belief that hostile confrontation is the smart way to go rather than cordial cooperation. I don’t think there’s anything “smart” about a needlessly confrontational attitude that tends to escalate conflict for no good reason and often ends badly. But since this sidetrack is irrelevant to the thread topic and seems to be driving other posters away, may I suggest again that we finally drop this. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1483 "2025-07-31T16:21:14Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Someday you might stop trying to make an argument through an idiotic example that’s completely irrelevant to the topic… So, when you say, “I live in a relatively peaceful society where citizens respect the police and the police respect citizens, who don’t go out of their way to antagonize them,” how is a cite to decades of Canadian cops murdering indigenous people _not_ relevant? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1484 "2025-07-31T16:33:35Z")
[Jim Carrey]”Because it’s devastating to my case!” [/Jim Carrey] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1485 "2025-07-31T16:36:39Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > You claimed it was “smart” to answer a police officer’s question about drinking by repeatedly squawking “am I free to go?” like a deranged parrot. Since no such claim was made, you have made absolutely no point at all. ---
**Author:** ![ricepad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@ricepad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricepad)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1486 "2025-07-31T16:48:07Z")
I opened this thread because I find the concept of sovereign citizens fascinating in much the same way that I find random animal turds fascinating (I always wonder what said animal had been eating). I didn’t expect to walk into a virtual urinating contest, with pee splattered all over the floors, fixtures, walls, and even the ceiling. I realize this is the Pit, but holy cow. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1487 "2025-07-31T16:55:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > You claimed it was “smart” to answer a police officer’s question about drinking by repeatedly squawking “am I free to go?” like a deranged parrot. > > Since no such claim was made, you have made absolutely no point at all. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > I also note that these belligerent assholes not only refuse to answer the question about drinking, > > Which is not only legal but the smart thing to do even if you haven’t been drinking. In the video, the asshole keeps repeating “am I free to go?” instead of answering the question. @Saint_Cad approves. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1488 "2025-07-31T16:59:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, when you say, “I live in a relatively peaceful society where citizens respect the police and the police respect citizens, who don’t go out of their way to antagonize them,” how is a cite to decades of Canadian cops murdering indigenous people _not_ relevant? Is your example indicative of a real societal problem? Of course it is. And there are similar problems in relation to how police have sometimes treated other minorities. Those problems are being addressed, helped along by the fact that Canada is uniquely a diverse society, with historically high rates of immigration and celebrating diversity rather than social pressure for assimilation. But that wasn’t the subject under discussion. My point was that in general, relations between police and citizens in Canada tend to be more cordial and less confrontational than what I see happening in the US. There are many reasons for this and one can speculate about them, but I suggest that among the reasons are the absence of a gun culture, with police not in constant fear of getting shot, and, especially pertinent to the recent discussion, the absence of a subculture obsessed with “constitutional rights” and anxious to assert them at every opportunity. Canadians are protected by a Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but don’t carry it around next to their heart like a sacred text that was personally handed to them by God himself. So, when ecountering a sobriety checkpoint and asked if they’ve been drinking, the typical Canadian will reply “no”. @Saint_Cad recommends ignoring the question and repeating the magic incantation “am i free to go?” over and over again. It’s an attitude that I find to be uniquely American. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1489 "2025-07-31T17:00:27Z")
> [@ricepad](#): > > I opened this thread because I find the concept of sovereign citizens fascinating in much the same way that I find random animal turds fascinating (I always wonder what said animal had been eating). I didn’t expect to walk into a virtual urinating contest, with pee splattered all over the floors, fixtures, walls, and even the ceiling. I realize this is the Pit, but holy cow. I agree. I would love for it to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1490 "2025-07-31T17:01:02Z")
Can we all just agree that Saint\_Cad is a SovCit and wolfpup is a Nazi and move on? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1491 "2025-07-31T17:04:19Z")
It might be noted that the most celebrated ruling in SovCit case law, _Meads v. Meads_, was written by . . . wait for it, a CANADIAN JUDGE! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1492 "2025-07-31T17:10:47Z")
Was there any legal (or ethical) reason not to answer such a simple question? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1493 "2025-07-31T17:51:22Z")
Getting back on track, here is a gentleman asserting his “rights”. Maybe not exactly a sovcit, but definitely sovcit-adjacent. Spoiler: it doesn’t end well for him. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/7i5EwntOyt0/maxresdefault.jpg "Rich Guy Trolling the Police Gets Karma") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i5EwntOyt0) ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1494 "2025-07-31T17:57:55Z")
“GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME!! With no disrespect, sir.” 🤣 Extra points for asking “Am I being detained?” while he’s already cuffed and in the back of the patrol car. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1495 "2025-07-31T18:29:44Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > It might be noted that the most celebrated ruling in SovCit case law, _Meads v. Meads_, was written by . . . wait for it, a CANADIAN JUDGE! For those who might like to read the decision in _Meads v. Meads_, 2012 ABQB 571, here’s a link to Canlii: [https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html?resultId=2ed55fa26f8747f08495641f621f8073&searchId=2025-07-31T12:26:54:279/599bb1fdbaf4452a908155a633ce7a11](https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html?resultId=2ed55fa26f8747f08495641f621f8073&searchId=2025-07-31T12:26:54:279/599bb1fdbaf4452a908155a633ce7a11) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1496 "2025-07-31T18:44:55Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > For those who might like to read the decision in _Meads v. Meads_, 2012 ABQB 571, here’s a link to Canlii: I absolutely love the preamble – I couldn’t imagine a better summary of my position here: > This Court has developed a new awareness and understanding of a category of vexatious litigant. As we shall see, while there is often a lack of homogeneity, and some individuals or groups have no name or special identity, they (by their own admission or by descriptions given by others) often fall into the following descriptions: Detaxers; Freemen or Freemen-on-the-Land; Sovereign Men or Sovereign Citizens; Church of the Ecumenical Redemption International (CERI); Moorish Law; and other labels - there is no closed list. In the absence of a better moniker, I have collectively labelled them as Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument litigants [“OPCA litigants”], to functionally define them collectively for what they literally are. These persons employ a collection of techniques and arguments promoted and sold by ‘gurus’ (as hereafter defined) to disrupt court operations and to attempt to frustrate the legal rights of governments, corporations, and individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1497 "2025-07-31T19:01:11Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Can we all just agree that Saint\_Cad is a SovCit If you can define what a SovCit is. Because as of now, you and wolfpup seem to thing SovCit seems to be that same thing as not talking o police … which is a real right in the United States. A SovCit is a person that does not believe they have to follow laws they don’t consent o, so you two need to get your definitions right if you don’t want to look like idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1498 "2025-07-31T19:36:45Z")
Pretty sure that was sarcasm you’re responding to, there. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1499 "2025-07-31T20:03:31Z")
Sometimes it’s hard to tell in the Pit without the /s ---
**Author:** ![Disinfectus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/disinfectus/32/11085_2.png) [@Disinfectus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disinfectus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1500 "2025-08-01T00:35:37Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything “smart” about a needlessly confrontational attitude that tends to escalate conflict for no good reason and often ends badly. There is nothing needlessly confrontational about protecting your rights. Every defense attorney worth a damn will tell you not to answer questions. Those questions are designed to give them probable cause where none previously existed. For every video you’ve found, I can find 10 videos of people asserting their rights and being let go because the officers know that they can’t charge them with anything without probable cause. [Here’s a good example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttfKum235Rg)of someone who knows their rights. The cops don’t like it, and they often get grumpy about it, but thanks to bodycams, there is less bullshit they can get away with if they don’t want a lawsuit. You have a right not to self-incriminate yourself, and being chatty and polite often leads to self-incrimination. Maybe that’s not the way it works in Canada, but it is absolutely the way it works in the states. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=76)