# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/141 "2016-10-28T21:45:32Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > No, you just told the crew to rewire the electrical to code in an old house in England. Fine. Let’s universe this place. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/142 "2016-10-28T22:11:04Z")
Where do you put the gold fringe on a universe? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/143 "2016-10-28T22:18:31Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Where do you put the gold fringe on a universe? On Princess Leia’s bikini, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/144 "2016-10-30T03:59:33Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Here is how crazy these people are: Ryan Bundy, one of those arrested for the take-over of the wildlife refuge in Oregon, is in jail awaiting trial (jury currently deliberating). He is [outraged that he is denied his gun](http://crooksandliars.com/2016/05/ryan-bundy-wants-his-guns-back-while). _In jail_. > _All of my First Amendment rights are being violated. My right to freedom of religion is being violated. I cannot participate in religious activities and temple covenants, and wear religious garments. […] My right to freedom of speech is being hampered by monitoring and recording. My right to freedom of assembly is being violated; I am not allowed to see my brother and move about. Yesterday, I attempted to discuss these issues with the U.S. Marshals, and they said that these were simply the jail rules. […] My Second Amendment rights are being violated. I never waived that right._ He waived his rights when he broke the law. It’s called punishment. And since when are cowboy hats, boots and guns “religious garments”??? For a bad ass Western gunslingin’ outlaw, he sure sounds like a whiner, doesn’t he. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/145 "2016-10-30T04:21:22Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > He waived his rights when he broke the law. What law? He did not consent! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/146 "2016-10-30T04:54:12Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > …For a bad ass Western gunslingin’ outlaw, he sure sounds like a whiner, doesn’t he. There’s a lot of that going around. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/147 "2016-10-30T19:54:07Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > He waived his rights when he broke the law. It’s called punishment. And since when are cowboy hats, boots and guns “religious garments”??? > > For a bad ass Western gunslingin’ outlaw, he sure sounds like a whiner, doesn’t he. He was acquitted in a trial. The Bundy people have nothing to do with the sovereign citizen movement. That’s what I don’t understand. The Bundy’s are supposed to be sovereign citizens, but in real life, their defense was in line with typical legal conventions. I could see people saying that the Bundy’s are sovereign citizens, and if they go to trial they’ll be nuts, but they have gone to trial and were not nuts. Bundy was actually making a statement on how those accused of crimes are denied their rights. This is a big problem in our society. Many people, especially poor people, often sit in jail for months before they are given a trial for victimless crimes. Hearing their stories was one of the saddest parts of my time in jail. Hardee har har. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/148 "2016-10-30T20:10:10Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > He waived his rights when he broke the law. It’s called punishment. And since when are cowboy hats, boots and guns “religious garments”??? > > For a bad ass Western gunslingin’ outlaw, he sure sounds like a whiner, doesn’t he. I assume by “religious garments” he meant the underwear Mormons wear as part of their faith. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/149 "2016-10-30T21:35:45Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Where do you put the gold fringe on a universe? ROJAN: There is an gold fringe at the rim of your galaxy. KIRK: Yes, I know. We’ve prevented joinder. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/150 "2016-10-30T21:45:01Z")
> [@Memnon](#): > > Haven’t read past the OP, but I _had_ to post [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pBougV1JK4) from ‘With Bob & David’ 😃 That is awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/151 "2016-10-30T22:07:35Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > ROJAN: There is an gold fringe at the rim of your galaxy. > KIRK: Yes, I know. We’ve prevented joinder. When a captain and spaceship and docking are involved, invoking maritime law must surely be a formality, even if we don’t have access to a Romulan Fringing Device. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/152 "2016-10-31T14:43:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > He was acquitted in a trial. The Bundy people have nothing to do with the sovereign citizen movement. That’s what I don’t understand. The Bundy’s are supposed to be sovereign citizens, but in real life, their defense was in line with typical legal conventions. I could see people saying that the Bundy’s are sovereign citizens, and if they go to trial they’ll be nuts, but they have gone to trial and were not nuts. > > Bundy was actually making a statement on how those accused of crimes are denied their rights. This is a big problem in our society. Many people, especially poor people, often sit in jail for months before they are given a trial for victimless crimes. Hearing their stories was one of the saddest parts of my time in jail. Hardee har har. But he did try out some SovCit arguments. > **[Ryan Bundy Declares Himself An 'Idiot' Not Subject To US Courts](https://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/ryan-bundy-incompetent-subject-federal-law/)** > > Malheur refuge occupier Ryan Bundy filed a flurry of court documents Thursday, declaring himself an "idiot of the 'Legal Society'" who is "incompetent" and not subject to federal law. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/153 "2016-10-31T14:50:35Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > He waived his rights when he broke the law. It’s called punishment. And since when are cowboy hats, boots and guns “religious garments”??? It can’t be punishment; he hasn’t been convicted yet. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Bundy was actually making a statement on how those accused of crimes are denied their rights. Be that as it may, even you, our resident anti-government crusader-in-chief, presumably don’t think it’s bad that people aren’t allowed guns or “freedom of movement” in jail. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/154 "2016-10-31T16:18:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It can’t be punishment; he hasn’t been convicted yet. > > Be that as it may, even you, our resident anti-government crusader-in-chief, presumably don’t think it’s bad that people aren’t allowed guns or “freedom of movement” in jail. I stand corrected. Let’s call it detainment, prior to trial. Still, he really thinks people under criminal investigation and “holding” should be allowed to have guns in jail??? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/155 "2016-10-31T16:21:53Z")
Still on the mark: “Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest.” _Coleman v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue_ (7th Cir. 1986), 791 F.2d 68, 69. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/156 "2016-10-31T16:25:24Z")
No, but – and this is what takes him into Sov Cit territory – he wants to be an obnoxious PITA to the system. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/157 "2016-10-31T16:44:50Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > No, but – and this is what takes him into Sov Cit territory – he wants to be an obnoxious PITA to the system. In that case, he was a resounding success. \ ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/158 "2017-03-03T18:49:43Z")
Bumped for [a guy trying to sovereign his way out](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/03/03/yall-cant-do-nothing-to-me-sovereign-citizen-accused-of-killing-police-officer-tells-judge/?tid=pm_national_pop&utm_term=.25e6dfc6b1ea) of having murdered his pregnant girlfriend and a police officer. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/159 "2017-03-04T09:20:01Z")
“So this really exists?” I think I read that _ **300,000 Americans** _ have bought into the sovereign citizen creed; 100,000 of those are hardcore. :eek: FBI regards this collection as a much more serious terrorist threat than all the Muslims on the continent. (But it’s not a priority for Trumpforcement of course, since stupidity is one of their major constituencies: our new President has declared “I love the poorly educated!”) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/160 "2017-03-04T14:39:02Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Bumped for [a guy trying to sovereign his way out](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/03/03/yall-cant-do-nothing-to-me-sovereign-citizen-accused-of-killing-police-officer-tells-judge/?tid=pm_national_pop&utm_term=.25e6dfc6b1ea) of having murdered his pregnant girlfriend and a police officer. The judge just kind of sighed and said “This shit again?”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=9)