# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 82
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1621 "2025-12-19T01:51:29Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Some are tearful and regretful, but many of these yokels are simply indignant and threaten to sue. Some of the ones who do take it to court end up with additional charges, like contempt of court. On the channels I watch they don’t show the tearful and regretful ones, just the ones who threaten to sue. When they do wind up in court, they are annoying as all hell. I’m surprised more judges don’t give out more contempt of court sentences. One of a zillion reasons I could never be a judge. I just don’t have the patience to deal with them. The novelty has waned do I don’t watch them much anymore but there are both police and judges who are better at shutting them down effectively. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1622 "2025-12-19T02:56:03Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > For me it’s a total mystery why ANYONE would get sucked into believing this shite. It’s a similar phenomenon to Arthur C Clarke’s “_Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic_” If you have no understanding of civics and laws are just magic spells cast by authority, then it’s not illogical to think that if you cast other magic spells you may ward off authority’s spells. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyEcks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnnyecks/32/18197_2.png) [@JohnnyEcks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyEcks)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1623 "2025-12-19T14:14:12Z")
Don’t underestimate the power of nonsense asserted with confidence and conviction. Especially when it’s something that the listener desperately wants to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1624 "2025-12-19T14:39:14Z")
It bears repeating: “Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest.” _Coleman v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue_ (7th Cir. 1986), 791 F.2d 68, 69. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1625 "2025-12-19T20:11:50Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > I can only presume that Sovereign Citizen doctrine appeals to a certain aberrant neurology, the way conspiracy theories and Flat Earth beliefs appear perfectly rational to people with a quasi-paranoid mental state. > > I don’t know if they are the same. I’ll argue there is a lot of psychological overlap. But the ones who are farthest out on the oppositional / defiant personality trait take up SovCittery as a more active form of rejectionist mentality than the more passive form of rejectionism practiced by the e.g. CT or FE folks. Tying this into current politics, a heck of a lot of current propaganda seems designed to both normalize and amplify the amount of oppositional / defiant behavior by the masses. Which will have baleful effects across the board. But will certainly increase the profits for the boosters of SovCittery, CTs, and FEs. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1626 "2025-12-19T20:18:28Z")
Reality check for Tesla-driving Florida Woman, or, how to embarrass the hell out of your daughter. With our favorite omniscient narrator. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/LV0lBRjrsRU/maxresdefault.jpg "Smug Sovereign Citizen Gets A Well Deserved Reality Check From Florida Cops") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV0lBRjrsRU) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1627 "2025-12-19T21:36:01Z")
I wonder how much overlap there is between SovCittery and racism. And whether and by how much SovCittery may leans whiter than the general populace. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1628 "2025-12-19T21:39:21Z")
African Americans have the same group but based on: (descendants of … > **[Moorish sovereign citizens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_sovereign_citizens)** > > The Moorish sovereign citizen movement, sometimes called the indigenous sovereign citizen movement or the Rise of the Moors, is a sub-group of sovereign citizens that mainly holds to the teachings of the Moorish Science Temple of America that hold that African Americans are descendants of the Moabites (descendants of Abraham's nephew Lot) and thus are "Moorish" by nationality and Islamic by faith. > During the 1990s, the Moorish sovereign citizen movement was started by former followers of the Moo... ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1629 "2025-12-19T21:41:21Z")
So I found this oddity, an academic paper with some strange pretzel logic. [‘Sovereign Citizen Gets Roasted’: On the Nomophilia of Sovereign Citizens and Their Settler-Colonial Critics](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/09646639251330490) It wants to shame those of us who are entertained by sovcits hilariously getting themselves into trouble. The justification for this is that the sovcits form a resistance movement against the settler-colonial state. The author is for anything that will do that. He even spins it as a resistance movement of “indigenous” peoples. The author twists his argument into a pretzel by contradicting himself. He is also forced to conclude that the sovcits hold the same “nomophilic” (law-loving) mindset held by the state that he hates, then handwaves that away. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1630 "2025-12-19T22:27:02Z")
I remember seeing that paper referenced, either here or in another Dope thread. It’s kind of difficult to view sov cits as downtrodden citizens fighting the “colonial-settler state”, when they’re driving Teslas and own large tracts of property that they just don’t want to pay taxes on. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1631 "2025-12-19T23:25:32Z")
Cop: You couldn’t drive it ‘cause it doesn’t have a tag on it. Tow truck driver: Oh! Well, there you go. OK then. _[goes to car]_ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1632 "2025-12-29T15:40:09Z")
Folks, if you’ve haven’t yet gotten into serious trouble yet for using sov cit tactics, or if you already have and want to get in deeper while tossing serious cash down the blowhole, seek out these pseudo-lawyers. Lots of services to help you prove you aren’t obliged to pay back creditors, that you can travel instead of drive etc. > **[Williams and WILLIAMS Law Group](https://www.williamsandwilliamslawfirm.com)** > > A lawyer that isn't an officer of the court. How novel. Retain your rights when you take on someone who can help you. A child hires someone to "represent" them, an adult hires someone to be their "agent." Yes, there’s serious coin involved, so you have to be seriously committed to being fleeced, sorry, forking over $$$ for “litigation”. > [@](#): > > If you’re ready to go to war, this is what we specialize in. Typically we make a list of all the litigation that needs to be done then determine an up-front donation to secure myself and Joey for the duration of all the litigation. This is typically between $160,000-300,000. Ideally, we find a way to pay that with credit then immediately just add that creditor into the litigation package. > > **Generalized consulting:** > > $2000 per hour securities donation. This could be to look over existing documents, advice on various situations, looking over contracts, etc. > [@](#): > > Your donations go toward a religious crusade that I am involved in that will mostly go towards advertising, research and discovery. Definitely, hire Brandon Joe Williams and his associates. It’ll be a fun ride! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2025, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1633 "2025-12-29T16:07:14Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Definitely, hire Brandon Joe Williams and his associates. It’ll be a fun ride! Cap’t Oveur: “Joey, ever been fucked with a sandpaper condom”? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2025, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1634 "2025-12-30T00:34:46Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This is typically between $160,000-300,000. Ideally, we find a way to pay that with credit then immediately just add that creditor into the litigation package. In other words they want to you to become their creditor based on a contract while saying their whole schtick is not paying creditors and breaking contracts. I’m in. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2025, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1635 "2025-12-30T00:48:08Z")
Well it is going to be expensive since as well the time and effort to represent you as your ~~lawyer~~ agent they they will need money to cover the hiring of a ~~lawyer~~ agent to represent them in their inevitable contempt of court and practicing law without a license, and that ~~lawyer~~ agent will have to hire his own ~~lawyer~~ agent who will have to hire his own ~~lawyer~~ agent … Overall $160,000-300,000 is a bargain. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2025, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1636 "2025-12-30T01:05:36Z")
The thread title (“tell me this is fake”) is actually valid here. It’s performance art. Brandon Williams (“DJ R Dub”) is a slow-jams DJ at a Los Angeles radio station. He founded the Republic of [Slowjamistan,](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-02-01/slowjamastan) a micro-nation in the California desert with laws such as a ban on Crocs. His address is 123 Purple Monkey Lane, Pickletaria. It’s all just a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2025, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1637 "2025-12-30T02:19:58Z")
Hah well we live in the age of Trump in which reality has become too ridiculous to be distinguishable from satire. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2025, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1638 "2025-12-30T02:29:32Z")
Unfortunately it’s no joke for those who’ve encountered this sov cit guru, including the real attorneys and judges who’ve had to deal with him, and at least one “client”. Brandon Joe has a list of cases he proudly cites, though with spectacular lack of success. Here’s an example, in which he sues American Express for, among many other things, “BENEFITTING FINANCIALLY FROM PEONAGE, SLAVERY AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS”. [https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68310355/1/brandon-joe-williams-v-american-express-company/](https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68310355/1/brandon-joe-williams-v-american-express-company/) Other Brandon Joe slitherings through the legal system, on behalf of himself and poor Henrik, who he disavows. > **[Current and Previous Litigation — Williams and WILLIAMS Law Firm](https://www.williamsandwilliamslawfirm.com/current-and-previous-litigation)** > [@](#): > > **Henrik is knowledgeable enough to continue the Federal case without us and we are no longer working on this case. We will absolutely not put up with our own clients stabbing us in the back and attacking us secretly.** Lots of YouTube and Rumble videos and interviews with Brandon Joe about not paying taxes and other advice can be found online. > **[What are Sovereign State Citizens with Brandon Joe Williams - Inspiring Hope...](https://www.loishermann.com/2025/07/03/sovereign-state-citizens-with-brandon-joe-williams/)** > > Happy Independence - What are sovereign state citizens with Brandon Joe Williams, Sharon, Leslie & Lois - Inspiring Hope #227 More, from less-admiring sorts: > **[Reddit - The heart of the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/amibeingdetained/comments/1ds742u/brandon_joe_williams_new_sovcit_guru_shows_sovcit/)** Remember that while their activities seem laughable, sov cits are a big pain in the ass and sometimes much worse. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2025, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1639 "2025-12-30T16:31:04Z")
Sometimes our licenses lapse, or our plates on our car expire. That happended to my wife just recently. The post office didn’t properly forward our mail (new car registrations are needed since we moved). They didn’t even send the form to us for our new post office to scan. My wife did her part to get our mail forwarded, the post office did not do theirs. I’ll look in the mail box again today, but this was weeks ago. But my wife took the ticket, said thank you officer and went on her way. That’s how it’s done. Or you can argue “IT’S NOT MY FAULT” and spend the night in jail. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2025, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1640 "2025-12-30T18:23:57Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > But my wife took the ticket, said thank you officer and went on her way. Wow, someone in Colorado got a ticket for an expired plate? She must be one of the most unlucky people alive. Worst I saw recently was a Ford Raptor that appeared to not have any plates, but a careful look at the tinted rear window showed a temporary plate tag expired in 2021. Another was the non-stickered front plate mounted on the rear, and the rear plate on the dashboard, with a several years old expired sticker. These are just from walking the dog in my suburban middle-class neighborhood. To keep on topic, the sovereign citizen types are probably over thinking it. Some homemade “just travelling” plate might attract law enforcement attention. Simply not paying registration or insurance is likely to pass without any repercussions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=81) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=83)