# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 84
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1661 "2025-12-31T18:42:37Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Many of them are so delusional that they continue to do exactly the same thing after contesting the charge in court and getting convicted, and are arrested repeatedly. Even animals far down on the intelligence ladder learn from experience, but these imbeciles do not. - They’re convinced that they haven’t yet found someone who isn’t part of the conspiracy. Or they haven’t muttered the proper phrase magic spell. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1662 "2025-12-31T19:09:10Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > My point is that there isn’t any _traveling/operating a motor vehicle_ “dichotomy” that they can pretend to hide behind. And my point still is that they will hide behind laws/rules that _just do not exist in this reality at all._ ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1663 "2025-12-31T19:10:14Z")
Mentioned in the movie thread but not mentioned here AFAIK is **[a very powerful movie called _Sovereign_, released in 2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_(film))**. It’s based on the 2010 West Memphis police shootings, linked in that article. Although movies inevitably alter some facts for dramatic effect, from my reading of the real-life events, the movie was mostly accurate. It’s fun to point and laugh but some of these fuckers can be really dangerous. The story concerns a man who was a strongly committed sovcit and gradually indoctrinated his son into the cult. The end result was tragic in many ways. The son fatally shot two police officers at a traffic stop when they tried to arrest the father. Several hours later their van was located and surrounded by police in a Walmart parking lot and a gun battle ensued. Several police officers were seriously wounded but in the end both father and son were shot to death. The point of the movie, and the story, is that these were not criminals in the usual meaning of the term. They were committed sovereign citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1664 "2025-12-31T19:39:24Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The point of the movie, and the story, is that these were not criminals in the usual meaning of the term. They were committed sovereign citizens. I’ll take a criminal any day over one of these idiots, at least the criminal is operating in the same consensus reality. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1665 "2025-12-31T21:45:54Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > these were not criminals in the usual meaning of the term. Ideologically motivated to take up arms against the state is pretty much how the term “terrorist” is used today. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1666 "2025-12-31T21:53:38Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > these were not criminals in the usual meaning of the term. > As a sovereign citizen, Jerry Kane did not have a driver’s license and his van was not properly registered. He was also carrying a brick of marijuana and there were two arrest warrants for him, one in Ohio and one in New Mexico. > … > In 2006, Kane was indicted for forgery and theft of a car by deception in Montgomery County, Ohio, and there was an outstanding warrant at the time of his death. > [2010 West Memphis police shootings - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_West_Memphis_police_shootings) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1667 "2025-12-31T23:49:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > > > My point is that there isn’t any _traveling/operating a motor vehicle_ “dichotomy” that they can pretend to hide behind. > > And my point still is that they will hide behind laws/rules that _just do not exist in this reality at all._ On the Gripping Hand, those laws/rules actually DO exist, in the **mind palace** of the Sovereign Citizens, and nothing anyone can do will dislodge them from that sad and musty place. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2026, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1668 "2026-01-01T00:07:43Z")
Yabbut, I’m getting tired of all the videos where the cop says “driving” and the sovcit says “traveling.” I’d like to see one where the sovcit says whatever they say when “operating a MV without requisite documentation” is cited. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2026, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1669 "2026-01-01T07:45:39Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’d like to see one where the sovcit says whatever they say when “operating a MV without requisite documentation” is cited. They claim it’s not a motor vehicle and /or they aren’t operating it. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2026, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1670 "2026-01-01T17:03:11Z")
Anyone who thinks there is some way to phrase it that will put sovcits in their place is just as delusional as the sovcits who think their magic words will make it legal. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2026, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1671 "2026-01-02T22:51:15Z")
'Zactly. As has been hashed out numerous times around here, and plastered all over the internet. It is not possible for anyone to win a battle of words or ideas with a sovcit. Not a cop, not a judge, not a poster here. And especially anyone who hasn’t read any of thread yet. The cops and the judge have the tremendous advantage over us that they’re legally empowered to escalate beyond mere words once those prove ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1672 "2026-01-06T03:40:40Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > I wonder if sometimes the sovcit loons purposely avoid taking measures to subvert the law just so they can flout it on principle. Like, if they knew how to easily counterfeit a tag sticker that would avoid trouble but didn’t because that would be acknowledging that the law was legitimate. > **[Police: Scranton driver resists arrests, acts as a ‘sovereign citizen’](https://www.thetimes-tribune.com/2026/01/05/police-scranton-driver-resists-arrests-acts-as-a-sovereign-citizen/)** > > When state police stopped a Scranton man driving erratically on New Year’s Eve for a traffic violation, he indicated that he was a sovereign citizen and refused to provide information, accord… > [@](#): > > Troopers noted inspection and emission stickers on the vehicle were fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1673 "2026-01-06T04:55:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Troopers noted inspection and emission stickers on the vehicle were fraudulent. Which is actually an additional charge, in most places. Folks, take it from an inveterate scofflaw. If you’re going to flaunt the law, do it the cheapest, laziest way you can. At least then you didn’t spend extra time and money on your way to the pokey and getting out afterward, if it ends up there. On my previous streak of driving with expired tags/inspection (18 months), when I was stopped I explained that I simply hadn’t taken care of them. The trooper asked if I hadn’t or couldn’t afford to take care of them. I confirmed that I could afford it, but was simply too stupid and lazy to have gotten it taken care of. He then told he he’s technically supposed to arrest me for driving with expired tags (not sure if that’s true, but my doubt would have done nothing for me on the side of the highway), and what did I think he should do in this situation? “Tell me to get this car off the road and don’t get it back on the road until it’s legal again?” “Sounds good to me.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1674 "2026-01-06T13:49:17Z")
An advantage to being stopped on the highway by a state patrolman versus in town by local police is that the arrest & turnover process is a lot more effort and time-consuming for the patrolman than the local policeman. They sure will if they need to, e.g. a drunk, but if there’s a low-effort way within their reasonable discretion to end the stop without an arrest, they’ll usually take it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1675 "2026-01-06T15:15:12Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Update: “i, a woman” strikes out again. > > [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-lawyer-pseudolegal-lawsuit-judgment-1.7089006#:~:text=A%20lawsuit%20filed%20by%20a,hallmarks%20of%20a%20pseudolegal%20claim](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-lawyer-pseudolegal-lawsuit-judgment-1.7089006#:~:text=A%20lawsuit%20filed%20by%20a,hallmarks%20of%20a%20pseudolegal%20claim). ‘Man’ is having a tough time as well > [@](#): > > ‘Man’ has a long history of legal issues related to his anti-authority beliefs. > > In 2014 he appeared barefoot in the Geelong Magistrates’ Court over unpaid fines and proceeded to cause mayhem. > > When asked by Magistrate John Lesser if he was Gregory Francis, he replied: ‘My mum told me never to talk to strangers, what is your name?’ > **[Huge problem stopping Greg from inheriting a fortune from his late mum](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15434683/sovereign-citizen-inheritance-victoria-court-trust.html)** > > A notorious Australian sovereign citizen who once refused to speak in court unless addressed as 'Man Living in Body' is at risk of torpedoing his own inheritance payout in a fresh legal showdown.  ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1676 "2026-01-06T15:40:24Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > They sure will if they need to, e.g. a drunk, but if there’s a low-effort way within their reasonable discretion to end the stop without an arrest, they’ll usually take it. At least in Dallas, that holds true for the local police as well. If they can let you go home without it being likely to backfire on them, they’re going to let you go home. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2026, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1677 "2026-01-07T00:20:37Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > flaunt the law “Flout”, not “flaunt”. Unless you’re going to obey the law in the most over-the-top conspicuous “look at me” way. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2026, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1678 "2026-01-07T00:26:44Z")
It’s his family that will be suffering because his obstinacy will be forcing the executors to incur legal costs that would be paid out of his mother’s estate, reducing the size of the pie for everyone. They are asking for an order he pay indemnity legal costs, but even if they get that order, and even if he can be forced to pay, it’s unlikely it will cover everything. He’s either mentally ill or a real POS. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2026, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1679 "2026-01-07T00:42:29Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > > [@scabpicker](#): > > > > flaunt the law > > “Flout”, not “flaunt”. Unless you’re going to obey the law in the most over-the-top conspicuous “look at me” way. Ehhh, it’s been in the use I learned for more than a century. > [@](#): > > Although both of these words have been in use since the 16th century, the habit of using _flaunt_ instead of _flout_ appears to have not begun until the beginning of the 20th, and became notably more common in the 1930s and 1940s. > **['Flaunt' vs. 'Flout'](https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/is-it-wrong-to-confuse-flaunt-and-flout)** > > Is it wrong to confuse these words? If I’m writing an article and you’re my editor, I’ll take your advice. Until then, assume I’m meaning “flaunting disregard for the law” ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2026, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/1680 "2026-01-07T00:47:25Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Until then, assume I’m meaning “flaunting disregard for the law” Kinda like a sovereign citizen, making up their own rules? 😆 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=83) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=85)