# Space Force! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2019, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176 "2019-12-21T09:13:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/81 "2019-12-31T06:31:45Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > I’m not opposed to the idea of “Space Force” if it means we can trick Rs into funding space technology. > SF would just be doing what the Air Force (or the US space command) is doing already anyway. > > Trump thinks his SF is going to be all about pointing weapons at our foes, but really, it will be more about launching GPS satellites, asteroid defense, and cleaning up space debris. Yep, this. While the jokes basically write themselves on something like this, I’ve read a number of analyses of why this is not a new idea and that there are good reasons for separating out the command of space defence. Mainly that the various threats have been neglected while it’s been just a side issue on the air force’s plate. It was China shooting down one of their satellites in 2007 that focused minds on the various What ifs? So for the second time in a day a stopped watch is displaying the right time – Trump may not be doing something entirely stupid and self-serving. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/82 "2019-12-31T09:19:03Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > …I’m not sure what any of this has to do with the topic of the thread, and RioRico bringing up problems with “right to repair” issues feels like a hijack. I brought up a USMC logistic officer’s concerns over corporate control of military systems because a space force precluded from field maintenance due to supplier contracts - that’s a nightmare! I’ve read of horrendous maintenance backups with much military hardware left unfit for service. That’s bad enough in atmosphere. When (say) a vital pump blows as your USSF warcraft is boosting past Luna, can you wait for Dynex to ship one up to you? My point: the current travails of surface forces don’t bode well for a combat-ready USSF. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/83 "2019-12-31T17:03:41Z")
For the purposes of “do something now” I’d have renamed the Air Force the Aerospace Force and the only expense would be on whatever stationery and signage spells it out completely. But I could see the notion of taking Space Defense Command and gradually elevating it to a more autonomous form in a similar way as the Navy/Marines relationship evolved with time, but that’s the thing, it should happen with time. And as far as the distinguished CinC’s dreams of glory, well as mentioned before, the real primary interest of Space Defense should NOT be as a “fighting line” force but rather a big-picture/crucial details outfit regarding access/denial/optimization of space resources – so yes, it would help if there is a dedicated budget line for space defense interests that does not have to compete with keeping the fighter jocks happy (and BTW the transport people feel similarly about theirs). But in turn that means that we’ve better avoid letting this new outfit’s outlook grow from preconceived notion of what is it to be a “fighting force”. As someone else said, for instance, one critical Space Defense planning component is “what do we do _down here_ if the GPS/weather/recon satellites are knocked out?” That is a critical thing to deal with, but I can just imagine the vote-seekers (prez, committee chairs, reps from the districts where Boeing, Lockheed, Northrop, etc. have plants) thinking that’s boring and prosaic and wanting to promise real-life space battle and rod-bombardment capability. I pity the experts trying to tell them that in our real world, the Space Force cannot and should not waste time and money preparing for the third act of _Moonraker_. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/84 "2020-01-01T00:26:07Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > For the purposes of “do something now” I’d have renamed the Air Force the Aerospace Force and the only expense would be on whatever stationery and signage spells it out completely. > > But I could see the notion of taking Space Defense Command and gradually elevating it to a more autonomous form in a similar way as the Navy/Marines relationship evolved with time, but that’s the thing, it should happen with time. Okay, but why? I mean, there is a reason the Marines evolved to be essentially separate from the Navy, and there’s a reason the USAAF became the USAF. It is unclear to me why SPACE FORCE! needs to be its own thing, separate from the USAF. One could say “well, one’s for air, and one is for space,” but that is no logically different from arguing that the US Navy should split off the submarine arm into SUB FORCE! There isn’t any reason for this based on economy of scale; there just aren’t that many personnel, but U.S. standards, involved in fighting in space. There is at present, indeed, no fighting restricted to space at all. It has no peaceful purpose, because that’s why NASA exists. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/85 "2020-01-01T01:35:10Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Okay, but why? > > I mean, there is a reason the Marines evolved to be essentially separate from the Navy, and there’s a reason the USAAF became the USAF. There is ?! Pray tell ! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/86 "2020-01-25T02:18:57Z")
:smack: [Trump unveiled the new Space Force logo… and it’s ripping off Star Trek](https://apnews.com/976aa7ef6f356235e3c7f648eee4be48). :eek: I… I’m trapped in a spoof of early 21st-century American culture and politics, right? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/87 "2020-01-25T03:13:04Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > :smack: > > [Trump unveiled the new Space Force logo… and it’s ripping off Star Trek](https://apnews.com/976aa7ef6f356235e3c7f648eee4be48). > > :eek: > > I… I’m trapped in a spoof of early 21st-century American culture and politics, right? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/88 "2020-01-25T04:12:46Z")
We’re in the universe where Onion articles become real ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/89 "2020-01-25T04:17:12Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Trump unveiled the new Space Force logo… and it’s ripping off Star Trek](https://apnews.com/976aa7ef6f356235e3c7f648eee4be48). The Starfleet logo? Those socialist hippies? I think the Ferengi symbol would be more apt. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/90 "2020-01-25T12:55:38Z")
Actually, [a ripoff of the Space Command logo, which was a ripoff of the Starfleet logo, which was a ripoff of the NASA logo](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/skbaer/space-force-logo-star-trek). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/91 "2020-01-25T21:27:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > There is ?! Pray tell ! REally? I have to explain this? The reason the USAAF became the USAAF is because there is such a huge difference between running an air force and running an army that it’s worth separating them. It’s best to have experienced Air Force personnel running the air force, and soldiers running the Army. They have dramatically different needs in terms of procurement, training, logistics, and so on. It’s just more effective for them to operate independently. Navy and Marines? Same thing. A very logical case could be made that efficiencies would be found in merging the Marines with the Army, though. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/92 "2020-01-25T23:48:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I… I’m trapped in a spoof of early 21st-century American culture and politics, right? > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Yes. And you can’t get out. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/93 "2020-01-26T00:03:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > REally? I have to explain this? > > The reason the USAAF became the USAAF is because there is such a huge difference between running an air force and running an army that it’s worth separating them. It’s best to have experienced Air Force personnel running the air force, and soldiers running the Army. They have dramatically different needs in terms of procurement, training, logistics, and so on. It’s just more effective for them to operate independently. > > Navy and Marines? Same thing. Yet administratively the Marines are still under the Navy Department, while the Air Force spun off completely (the advantages of being the ones with the B29s and nukes). It will be interesting to see if an administrative Secretary is created anew or if they follow the naval model and keep a single Department of Aerospace Forces. Space Force would have likely spun off from the Air Force more in the manner of Navy/Marines, as a closely associated but autonomous body _given the fullness of time_, the way the Marines were around for like a century and a half before beginning to truly function like a separate entity and having the Commandant be the equal of the COSArmy and the Chief of Naval Ops at the Joint Chiefs and even then there wasn’t a Marine named as Chair of the JCS until 2005. The unusual thing about what is happening with Space Force is the decision on the part of the CinC that it must be created _NOW!!_ apparently just because _“Space Force! Now! The best, tremendous!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/94 "2020-01-26T00:10:36Z")
I’m not following parts of that last post, but the Space Force is established within the Department of the Air Force. The Secretary of the Air Force is the Chief of Space Operations’ boss. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/95 "2020-01-26T00:12:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not following parts of that last post, but the Space Force is established within the Department of the Air Force. The Secretary of the Air Force is the Chief of Space Operations’ boss. Ah, excellent, that answers \*that \*question. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/96 "2020-01-26T01:56:38Z")
double post ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/97 "2020-01-26T01:55:13Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > The unusual thing about what is happening with Space Force is the decision on the part of the CinC that it must be created _NOW!!_ apparently just because _“Space Force! Now! The best, tremendous!”_ We did delay large organizational change recommendations for almost two decades. In early 2001 the Commission to Assess United States National Security Space Management and Organization\* finished its Congressionally mandated review. Their [report](https://fas.org/spp/military/commission/report.htm) included a mandated review of four Congressionally defined possible approaches. One of those was creation of a wholly separate Department within DOD. While the report generally came out against it they did think changes should be structured in a way to enable that potential move later. Another of the approaches they evaluated is what we basically just did. That was a model similar to the Marine Corps existence within the Dept of the Navy. They assessed that as having many of the same strengths and weaknesses with the added disadvantage of maintaining the budgeting issues between space and other Air Force priorities. They did come up with a lengthy list of specific recommendations. The commission chair was even Donald Rumsfeld shortly before he was confirmed as SECDEF so it should have gotten quite a bit of traction. Mostly the recommendations got ignored. The ones that got implemented largely got reversed or watered down with time. The problem was they completed their work in early 2001. 9-11 happened and the recommendations were overcome by events. We are into the kind of time frame where we reasonably could have been asking the question about whether to create a wholly separate Department of Space within DOD. Instead we ignored the issues. In the intervening years, satellite technology has gotten cheaper and more effective while launch costs have gotten cheaper. Two new countries, India and China, have recently demonstrated effective anti-satellite weapons. Military operations have become increasing reliant on effective satellite communication and intelligence. Development of hypervelocity missiles makes increasing or satellite capability to detect them early very important…at least if we want to avoid mushroom cloud shaped miscalculations. We probably should be making big changes with respect to military operations in space and making them “_NOW!!_” Those changes are long overdue. That doesn’t mean these are the right changes. It doesn’t mean that I trust Trump made a good and informed decision. The timing is pretty understandable, though. I would like to think Clinton would be major pretty big changes, too. - 2001 A Space Commission Report 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/98 "2020-01-28T03:41:07Z")
Will the current astronaut corps be incorporated into the USSF? Will all space missions be USSF ops? Should suppliers of aerospace warez be nationalized? Can Elon Musk be drafted? (Visualize a space version of MASH. “How did that scumbag reach such a level of authority?” “He was drafted.”) When will USSF Capt. Midnight and sidekick Ichabod Mudd roar through the vicious vacuum lasering hostile satellites and devious solar kites while advertising Ovaltine? Has the USSF chosen any official sponsors yet? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/99 "2020-01-28T05:36:50Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Has the USSF chosen any official sponsors yet? [Just LEGO at the moment](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Df_TJqoXkAMETr0.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2021, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176/100 "2021-05-14T17:16:49Z")
## Space Base! > **[Vandenberg Air Force Base to be renamed Space Force Base](https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-20dac389eed3efe1da218a57900aaedc)** > > VANDENBERG SPACE FORCE BASE, Calif. (AP) — California’s Vandenberg Air Force Base was renamed Friday as a U.S. Space Force Base. > [@](#): > > The name will be changed to Vandenberg Space Force Base during an afternoon ceremony on the parade field at the sprawling base on the state’s Central Coast, which tests ballistic missiles and conducts orbital launches for defense, science and commercial purposes. > [@](#): > > “Redesignating Air Force installations as Space Force installations is critical to establishing a distinct culture and identity for the Space Force,” a base statement said. > > Vandenberg’s host unit, the 30th Space Wing, will be redesignated Space Launch Delta 30, under Space Operations Command. I still think Space Force is stupid and a waste of money. Has any new information that I’m not aware of come out that might change that perspective? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-force/845176.md?page=6)