Could you point it out?
gruven is defending people who steal government property and impede the progress of a critically important investigation, and I’m the jerk?
The train back to Bizarroworld leaves in five minutes. Your message is your ticket.
Maybe he does, but with that hat on, it’s hard to tell.
Yes, he made the point that people are focusing all their attention on this one tragedy, while much worse tragedies happen every day, and don’t get any attention at all. You don’t have to agree with it, but it’s a valid point.
Listen, hothead - if you had bothered to actually make a point in the first place, instead of typing one line about how someone is “stupid”, then we would have known what you are talking about, and realized that you completely missed the current gist of the thread.
And on Track 2, the train to Assholeland is getting ready to pull out - better hurry.
Oh where, oh where has reading comprehension gone? Cervaise, you are being an idiot and an asshole, as is Tuckerfan. No one, neither gruven nor myself, was “defending people who steal government property and impede the progress of a critically important investigation”. Instead, we questioned if the government’s reaction was a bit excessive.
I have since reversed my position after reading the specific details of the cases, said a mea culpa, and gruven seems to have backed off from the position as well.
His second point, which is what blowero was referring to, was not a point per se, but an honest question. I guess you would rather judge than think, as I can’t believe you morons missed it. Allow me to repeat it for the short attention spanned. “Why are 7 astronauts dying in the shuttle worthy of more grief than, say, 10 rangers who die in a helicopter training accident? Why are they worthy of more grief than 4 people who die in a car accident?” What is it about us that makes us grieve some deaths more than others. It is a philosophical question that is apparently beyond you two.
Damn, I type too slow. Let me just second blowero again, and also add Larry Mudd to the list of assholes without reading comprehension.
Huh? Did everyone just skip over the whole second page of this thread?
For those who like to polarize every argument, let me spell this out. I think it is perfectly reasonable for the government to prosecute these people. As I said before, they had ample warning that they couldn’t keep debris that they found, so they deserve what they get.
But as for this other argument (that apparently a lot of you missed), I think it’s an accurate observation that we tend to focus all of our grief on 7 people, while millions in the world are dying every day in even more tragic circumstances, with nobody to grieve for them. And it’s interesting how angry people get when this is pointed out. I understand how one might disagree, but why the anger?
Honestly, I’ve thought a lot about the difference between, say… The Space Shuttle exploding and say… a plane crash.
If I were to turn on the news today, and find out that a Delta took a nose dive. My response would be, “That’s so sad…”. But I would likely go on.
Conversely, when I heard about the Columbia exploding, I was crushed. I felt horrible. I sat here at work trying to refrain from screaming at people.
Why do I react so differently. I can only conclude that the loss of human life is not the issue here at all. If that were the case then I would barely be able to watch the news. I would never be able to watch movies centering around WWII or documentaries on the Holocaust.
What is the issue? I don’t know. Does it hurt my National Pride? My pride in the human race? You really got me. All I can say is that this struck a chord in me that even 9/11 didn’t touch. (That of course is a different story)
As for the fucknuts who have been stealing shuttle pieces. All I can say is that it was made very very clear that they were not to touch anything. That they would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. That it may be endangering themselves and others. Yet they decided to hell with it, I’ll do it anyway. They deserve whatever they get.
We have buttloads of helicopters and military personnel. Every person who serves in the military is aware that dying violently is potentially part of the job description. I pay for their salaries and for the price of the helicopters, planes, tanks, etc., but I don’t necessarily approve of the uses to which those pieces of machinery are put.
I also pay for the space program, but unlike the military, it is something I believe in, have great hopes for, love and respect wholeheartedly and unreservedly. Astronauts are pioneers who are exploring the most hostile environment possible outside of the interior of a star. They do it for not much recognition, not a lot of pay, mostly just because they believe as I do that their job is important, are curious and care terribly about our future as a species. There are pitifully few of them and damned few vehicles that can achieve space flight. When a shuttle goes down, it’s like a huge percentage of the dreams I’ve carried around since childhood has died and I fear for the future of the program as a whole. If we abandon space travel I for one feel as if we’ve given up on our future, whether that point of view is accurate or not. Giving up hope is a death blow.
I get upset when a dog gets run over, because I love dogs, but after all there are a lot of dogs. Let a tiger be poached for “medicine” and I grieve terribly, because the tiger is a rare and valuable creature which needs special care and consideration lest it be lost entirely.
That’s why I grieve more for Columbia than for seven students who went skiing the same weekend and started an avalanche that finished them off. Same number, different value. Perhaps that’s wrong of me, but I’m willing to take the karma.
Okay, yes, I did miss it, or at least in my anger at the first part of the thread I mistakenly assumed it was a subset of the first point rather than a separate question. In other words, I read it as amplifying the original (and stupid) position, to wit, “It isn’t that big a tragedy and therefore people should do what they want with the debris.” Mea culpa, and my apologies for inappropriately linking two unrelated points and reacting therefrom.
As far as the second question, though, I do consider it a bigger tragedy than, say, the sinking of an Indonesian ferry boat, or the burning of an old folks’ home, or any of the other tear-jerking stories that litters our newscape. I’m not sure I can explain why, either.
I don’t think it’s the deaths, even. If the shuttle had failed on re-entry but the astronauts had (improbably) managed to bail out somehow, but the orbiter was lost, I’d still be heartbroken to some extent. Not as much, necessarily, but still depressed.
Because, see, I look at the space program not as an American endeavor, necessarily, but as the first tentative grasping into the dark of the unknown by a species that stands at the threshold of true maturity. There is a nobility to the effort that I do not perceive in a planeload of folks going from Denver to Dallas. It is a breaking of new ground, an extension of human potential, a representation of hope and possibility.
Without the space program, we’re just a bunch of hyperintelligent primates bickering over diminishing resources on one tiny rock. With the beckoning future of space exploration, we look outward, beyond ourselves, beyond the limited future of inevitable territorial strife. We are still an infant species in that respect, still rooted in the ugliness of the past but now grasping the slender golden thread that will lead us to our future, if we can only keep hold of it.
And when something catastrophic threatens to shake our grip from that thread, I weep not for the loss of seven lives or the billions of dollars reduced to ash or any of the other prosaic details involved with such a tragedy. No, I weep for fear, and for the fragility of the dream. One plane crash does not endanger the future of the species; cratering a ValuJet into the Everglades will not stop us from shuttling our starry-eyed vacationers and Gucci-loafered stockbrokers from one coast to the other. One space-related disaster, though, if it’s bad enough, will sentence all of us to a pointlessly protracted spiral into destruction, squabbling over blood and water on our stupid little ball of dirt.
Or, to put it another way: When I look at a highway pileup, I see engineering and economics and risk-vs-reward algorithms and transitory pain for a few hundred associated individuals.
But when I see the flashes in the sky and the dividing contrail that signifies a blow to our space program, although I still see all of the above, I also see a terrible wound to human poetry, and I weep all the harder.
i wouldnt be afraid for the space program just because the media has a field day covering this ACCIDENT.
Then you underestimate the power of the media. YMMV I hope there is no lessening of commitment.
gruven,
Your point about this being just another aircraft accident is well taken. In fact these people are being prosecuted under laws written to prevent theft of aircraft wreckage. You would be subject to the same penalties if you took pieces of a cummuter airliner, or even a private plane.
And you are hearing about these arrests because of the enormous resources being expended by the news media to cover every possible aspect of the story.
I’ll second the above post.
Once the shuttle drops below 60,000 feet it’s treated as an aircraft under the Federal Aviation Regulations. It talks to air traffic control just like an airplane or helicoptor or blimp or balloon. As an unpowered glider it has right-of-way over all other traffic (I’ve always found that amusing that a spaceship fit into rules written down 50 years before it was built.)
Being a little more conversant than the average person with the regs AND with plane crashes, I can say that the same penalties apply no matter what the size of the flying machine. People DO collect “souvenirs” from small plane crashes, and they are arrested. There was a bit of a stir a couple years ago when a major aviation magazine ran an article about this topic, then published a letter from someone who claimed personal experience in the matter. He also pointed out that he had been resident at his current location 10 years and expected several more. The return address on the letter was a federal pen.
An acquaintance of mine crashed his two-seat homebuilt last summer on a road three blocks from where I live. The NSTB spent a couple days picking up everything, including paint chips, and parked it in a hangar at my local airport. The wreck was roped off, under guard when the reporters came around, and signs were posted detailing arrest, fines, and jail time for disturbing the evidence. Given the amount of spilled blood and, uh, >cough< tissue loss, not only did it not smell too good after a couple days but there were some health concerns.
(BTW - the pilot did survive and is expected to make a full recovery eventually as far as ability to walk, etc. They do expect his left leg to be a little weak due to extensive muscle loss).
What I’m rambling about is that the shuttle, for all it’s a spaceship, falls under standard aviation rules. If they’re being louder than usual about penalities it’s because this is a psychology important and historical craft. 10 years jail time and $250,000 could be applied to a ratty old Piper Cub going down in a field, though, if the government chose to impose such a penalty. It’s every bit as illegal to take parts from the crash of a privately owned airplane as from the wreck of the shuttle.
What I heard was that several folks had taken “souvenirs” but most gave them up when asked to. The two arrested had either refused to surrender the items or where otherwise engaged in deception.
Apparently, Beeblebrox you missed where I said
Nor do I see in any of gruven’s posts where he’s performed a mea culpa. Indeed, all that gruven’s done is said he’s going to let the matter drop.
Face it, you started this thread as a knee-jerk reaction to the words “government” and “arrests” without for a moment thinking about why the government was doing this. You then proceeded to get your ass handed to you on a silver platter. gruven joined in on your side and got his ass handed to him in a similar manner. And then, whilst bitching about reading comprehension, proceed to accuse me of suggesting that the shuttle remains are more important than the remains of those who died in another type of crash when the comment I’ve quoted above which was posted before your latest retort clearly contradicts that. And I’m the asshole? What a strange world you live in.
I think the gov’t would get more cooperation if they just agreed to give back the debris found by people after the conclusion of the investigation. At that point, if someone wants to sell it on ebay, more power to them. I imagine if they made this offer, more people might volunteer to aid in recovery efforts as well.
To me, it comes down to what is more improtant: to find out what caused the crash, or to prevent anyone so inclined from having a souvenir of the crash.
I would have thought if they try and arrest people who have debris and want to hang on to it, those people will just go underground. They’ll just hide what could be vital evidence.
I heard that the crash sites on 9/11 were cordoned off and people were arrested on the spot for violating the perimeter. I think that part of the reason we are hearing so many warnings not to steal wreckage is simply because of the sheer size of the debris field. It’s literally impossible to guard an area that spans several states.
That’s why they had an amnesty period to allow people to turn in what they had without penalty.
Tuckerfan, is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Why don’t you reread what I wrote, chief. I never said that gruven posted a mea culpa, I said he backed off the point. I also said you were ignoring his question, you were, and still are. It’s not the debris, it’s the lives that are important to his question.
Cervaise, thank you for that brilliant post. I especially liked this part:
**Absolutely beautiful.
One other thing. I have reversed my position on the OP. I was wrong. The following quote by Broomstick best illustrates why I changed my position.
I apologize for jumping to conclusions about the investigation, and I apologize for the OP. I thought about asking a moderator to close this, but decided to leave it open because I believe we can still have an interesting discusion on subjects tangential to the investigation.
People are also grieving the potential setbacks or even demise of the space program.