# Space Shuttle replacement **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 29, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768 "2005-07-29T16:38:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768/21 "2005-07-30T17:54:22Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > , the **idea** of a heatshield which can be rapidly applied, and didn’t necessitate lots of painstaking inspection and repair post-mission is a sound one. Sure, but they threw the capsules away afterwards and a big flat end saw the heat. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768/22 "2005-07-30T18:52:18Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Sure, but they threw the capsules away afterwards and a big flat end saw the heat. And the underside of the shuttle is what? The idea behind the ceramic tiles and carbon fiber panels on the shuttle is that they’re reusable. The problem with them is that the carbon fiber’s fragile and the tiles are individually shaped. Heck, [here’s an idea](http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/vtovl.htm) for using _leftover hydrogen fuel as the heat shield!_ ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768/23 "2005-07-30T19:30:19Z")
It’s amazing to me the tooling for those systems was just junked. The tooling for the B-1B and B-2 are stored at the air force AMARC facility in Tucson in case they are ever needed again. The KSC has enough land to have stored it all. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768/24 "2005-07-30T20:13:04Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Yes, but the capsules used by Apollo/Gemini/Mercury **didn’t** use ceramic tiles, they used an epoxy resin for their heatshield which burned away as the capsule reentered the atmosphere, so while the formulation that Rutan used probably wouldn’t work for the CEV, the **idea** of a heatshield which can be rapidly applied, and didn’t necessitate lots of painstaking inspection and repair post-mission is a sound one. This, or something like it, may be used on the CEV. But it’s a mistake to think that the heat-shield material can be “rapidly applied”; it was, in fact, one of the most time-consuming processes in the fabrication of the Apollo. Using an ablative heat-shield on a reusable vehicle would be different from that on a single-use capsule; you’d want to design it to be removable in order to facilitate turnaround time. Other proposals, such as active shielding (skin cooling) are good areas for research, but aren’t ready for prime time. There are some material enhancements and design changes to the Shuttle-type tiles that could make them more robust, but there’s always going to be an issue with attachment. > [@Padeye](#): > > It’s amazing to me the tooling for those systems was just junked. The tooling for the B-1B and B-2 are stored at the air force AMARC facility in Tucson in case they are ever needed again. The KSC has enough land to have stored it all. ::shrug:: This was basically a political desicion to kill Apollo but good so it couldn’t compete with the Shuttle. I’m speculating, but I’m guessing the Shuttle looked like a great new cash cow to the aerospace contractors for whom Apollo was starting to be…a little too mature, i.e. ripe for cost reduction. There was also quite a bit of reorganization going on in the industry, and a certain amount of fear, perhaps, that Boeing was going to end up with the pie while everyone else just got merengue on their faces, which if true is ironic because Boeing ended up buying North American Rockwell (the Shuttle fabricator). The Shuttle is a family dinner for virtually every major contractor including traditional (if often collaborative) competitors such as Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Lockheed-Martin, McDonnell-Douglas, Rocketdyne, TRW, NA Rockwell, Honeywell, and even solid-motor developer Morton-Thiokol (now ATK), which had traditionally been locked out of the space program. The only major contractor, other than Bell Aerospace (which had pretty much given up by the mid-Sixties), who didn’t have a big contract was Raytheon. Of course, most of these companies are now either divisions of one another (Boeing owns most of them, Northrop absorbed Grumman, Honeywell is out of the business entirely, and ATK, as the only provider of large solid rocket boosters left, has them all in a stranglehold.) The development of the Shuttle is much more a study in politics than in engineering. And it’s one that leaves you wanting to take a long, clensing shower. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768/25 "2005-07-30T20:24:46Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > This, or something like it, may be used on the CEV. But it’s a mistake to think that the heat-shield material can be “rapidly applied”; it was, in fact, one of the most time-consuming processes in the fabrication of the Apollo. Using an ablative heat-shield on a reusable vehicle would be different from that on a single-use capsule; you’d want to design it to be removable in order to facilitate turnaround time. Allow me to introduce you to my friend [the disk grinder](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000EI97E/002-8414002-9621630?v=glance). 😃 Seriously, though, use a robotically controlled version to take off the old, and another robot to spray on the replacement, or build a really huge kiln and fire a tough ceramic coating on to the hull, so it’s reusable and there’s no danger of individual tiles falling off. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768/26 "2005-08-06T11:28:24Z")
I just came across this interesting article about the uselessness of the [Space Shuttle](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/8004.easterbrook-fulltext.html). It was written in 1980. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768/27 "2005-08-07T01:58:31Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > They were even up to testing a [Single stage to orbit vehicle](http://www.spacefuture.com/archive/single_stage_to_orbit_vertical_takeoff_and_landing_concept_technology_challenges.shtml) (simular to the linked concept) just a few years ago that proved promising, why was it abandoned? No one could build the fuel tank. And the best people in the business tried. It was predicated on a functional single-stage fuel tank and it couldn’t be done. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768/28 "2005-08-07T02:03:50Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > From [Space.com](http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/rtf_shuttlec_031114.html):That’s a maximum payload of 32.5 tons, depending on the orbit. > > I think what NASA needs is an unmanned vehicle that can lift a large component up to Space Station Alpha, a light (not necessarily reusable) vehicle that can lift 4 or 5 people plus supplies to Alpha (3 station crew, 1 or 2 flight crew), and a reusable crewed vehicle based on the Shuttle. > > I’m using the space station as my standard of measure because that’s where a lot of the space flight action will be for the next several years. not really-in my opinion. The ISS is a dead end. Once the shuttle finishes building it, it will be mothballed. It’s basic problem is that it is in the wrong orbit. Way too high an inclination. Nothing in that orbit can reasonably go anywhere else (like the Moon or Mars). It is in that orbit to accomodate the Russians who need the orbit to reach the ISS with their vehicles from central asia. But it makes the ISS a dead end for the future. People talk about doing long-term space studies-and to the extent that those need to be done, the ISS does them well. But other than that, and being an excuse to keep the shuttle flying, it really doesn’t serve much purpose. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768/29 "2005-08-07T02:13:00Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > To obtain orbit, the shuttle must travel considerably faster than SpaceShipOne. since his vehicle never approached the speeds necessary for space travel, he had no need for significant heat shielding. It was a very nice piece of art. but even more pointless than the space shuttle turned out to be. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768/30 "2005-08-07T03:52:28Z")
> [@rbroome](#): > > since his vehicle never approached the speeds necessary for space travel, he had no need for significant heat shielding. > > It was a very nice piece of art. but even more pointless than the space shuttle turned out to be. So did I not say that, or what? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-shuttle-replacement/314768.md?page=1)