# Space travel means racial survival! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523 "2004-06-21T22:52:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/81 "2004-06-26T21:47:00Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Hm. Can us people with IQs under 200 rent him for a weekend? There’s lots of cool stuff we could actually use now that needs to be invented. ☹ How’s about you take a look at what all [Buckminster Fuller came up with?](http://www.bfi.org/) Houses for less than $20/sq foot, a car which in the 1930s got 30 MPG and seated 11, and a whole design philosophy which was predicated on doing more with less. Now ask yourself, “Why the _hell_ hasn’t anybody done these things that he’s been talking about?” Let’s throw in [square foot gardening](http://www.squarefootgardening.com/) to help solve hunger problems, and [air wells](http://www.airwellinc.com/) for folks in drought stricken areas. There’s _plenty_ of solutions to the world’s problems out there, the **real** problem is that _no one’s willing to use them!_ NASA gets $15 billion a year from the Federal government, HUD gets $30 billion. You’d think that with the money HUD gets they’d be able to take one of Bucky’s designs and build houses for everyone, but they can’t. Why? I don’t know. Oh, and Bucky Fuller’s the guy who coined the phrase “Spaceship Earth.” He was a _big_ proponent of humanity moving into space. We know what will happen if humanity stays on Earth forever: Extinction. We _don’t_ know what will happen if we move out into space, humanity still might go extinct, or it might not. I’ll take the slim chance of our species surviving over the certainty of it not. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/82 "2004-06-26T21:53:07Z")
That’s nothing new. That kind of pie-in-the-sky stuff has been advanced for decades by wide-eyed futurists. I recall when those hacks told us nuclear power would make electricity too cheap to meter. Damnation, they’ve had to put ball bearings in those meters. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/83 "2004-06-26T21:59:53Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > That’s nothing new. That kind of pie-in-the-sky stuff has been advanced for decades by wide-eyed futurists. I recall when those hacks told us nuclear power would make electricity too cheap to meter. Damnation, they’ve had to put ball bearings in those meters. Yeah, but did any of those hacks actually build the stuff? [Bucky’s car is real.](http://www.thirteen.org/bucky/car.html) So’s [the house.](http://www.thirteen.org/bucky/house.html) Some of Bucky’s ideas certainly _are_ [“pie in the sky,”](http://www.thirteen.org/bucky/cities.html) but a good number of them have been built and tested and found to work exactly as he said. Square foot gardening works, air wells work, they’re just not in common use. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/84 "2004-06-26T22:09:55Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > How’s about you take a look at what all [Buckminster Fuller came up with?](http://www.bfi.org/) Houses for less than $20/sq foot, a car which in the 1930s got 30 MPG and seated 11, and a whole design philosophy which was predicated on doing more with less. Now ask yourself, “Why the _hell_ hasn’t anybody done these things that he’s been talking about?” I’ve heard about all of that, and I agree fully. I don’t see why the gov’t doens’t take more “wild” ideas like that and conduct a few experiments on a large scale. Other countries do, with mixed success and failure, but at least they’ve tried. The companies certainly aren’t bending over backwards, because it means less profit for a lot of industries. See, there’s the catch. It is all BS. It needs to be profitable for it to be done. Feh, I hate this country. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/85 "2004-06-26T22:14:55Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I’ve heard about all of that, and I agree fully. I don’t see why the gov’t doens’t take more “wild” ideas like that and conduct a few experiments on a large scale. Other countries do, with mixed success and failure, but at least they’ve tried. So write your elected officials and bitch at them about it. It’s what I do. > [@](#): > > The companies certainly aren’t bending over backwards, because it means less profit for a lot of industries. See, there’s the catch. It is all BS. It needs to be profitable for it to be done. So write corporations and tell them that you’ll buy some of these things if they build them. > [@](#): > > Feh, I hate this country. Then move. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/86 "2004-06-26T22:21:38Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > So write your elected officials and bitch at them about it. It’s what I do. Nah. We need a visionary willing to take risks. The current leaders are just pathetic. > [@](#): > > So write corporations and tell them that you’ll buy some of these things if they build them. It isn’t that simple. The lumber, oil, construction, etc industries have powerful lobbies. There’s a lot of money in things like expensive housing and crappy automobiles. :-p > [@](#): > > Then move. Working on it. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/87 "2004-06-26T22:38:43Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Nah. We need a visionary willing to take risks. The current leaders are just pathetic. So appeal to their seedier nature. When I wrote to my representative (a Democrat) to encourage him to support Bush’s space iniative, I suggested that he push things farther along, seeing as how it was JFK who really got NASA rolling, it wouldn’t do for Bush to ride on JFKs coattails. > [@](#): > > It isn’t that simple. The lumber, oil, construction, etc industries have powerful lobbies. There’s a lot of money in things like expensive housing and crappy automobiles. :-p And if you start writing them letters saying, “I’m not going to buy your crappy product unless you make some changes to it.” you’ll get their attention. If they _know_ that they’re losing money because of what they’re doing, they’ll make some changes. > [@](#): > > Working on it. Well, if you’re working on it with the same kind of pessimistic attitude you’ve got towards our government and industry, you’ll die of old age before you ever get out of here. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/88 "2004-06-26T22:46:42Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > So appeal to their seedier nature. When I wrote to my representative (a Democrat) to encourage him to support Bush’s space iniative, I suggested that he push things farther along, seeing as how it was JFK who really got NASA rolling, it wouldn’t do for Bush to ride on JFKs coattails. > > And if you start writing them letters saying, “I’m not going to buy your crappy product unless you make some changes to it.” you’ll get their attention. If they _know_ that they’re losing money because of what they’re doing, they’ll make some changes. > > Well, if you’re working on it with the same kind of pessimistic attitude you’ve got towards our government and industry, you’ll die of old age before you ever get out of here. Sorry, I simply don’t have the faith in the people, government, and corporations of this country (or most others) to care or act. Wake me up when they’ve done something useful. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/89 "2004-06-26T23:50:04Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > There are many, many more “baby steps” than you list, if you want to do more than go collect rocks. You have to do all kinds of science on sustainable living, for instance. That is why I said that you would be wiser to invest your research into terraforming (or rather, the general field of engineering terrain, growing crops, recycling waste, etc). IMHO, a perfect testbed for this kind of stuff is, for example, the increasing desertification of sub-Sahara Africa and Central Asia. If you can figure out ways to reverse those situations, you’re doing a lot of rea-world research on what it will take to start any kind of farming on Mars. I fail to see how the greening of the African Desert has anything to do with terraforming the low-gravity permafrost on Mars. They’re not comparable at all. Both the scenarios you mention involve moving liquid water from nearby places where it’s already plentiful to places where it isn’t. You don’t have that option on Mars. Sure, there might be ice under the frozen desert, but you have no guarantees of using it for irrigation. If we can set up a self-sustaining agricutlural operation on the Moon, however, Mars should be a piece of cake. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/90 "2004-06-27T00:32:28Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Sorry, I simply don’t have the faith in the people, government, and corporations of this country (or most others) to care or act. Then you might as well kill yourself now, because you’re _never_ going to find one you’re happy with. > [@](#): > > Wake me up when they’ve done something useful. Why bother? Because if I point out something that I think they’ve done useful (like say, the internet), you’ll just be “ho hum” and go back to sleep. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/91 "2004-06-27T01:08:02Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Oh, I know, nerds have something to ja- oh, wait, I’m not allowed to say that anymore… No, you _ **aren’t** _ allowed to say that anymore. > [@Zagadka](#): > > that makes you a prejudiced asshat You aren’t allowed to use direct insults in Great Debates, either. Cool it. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/92 "2004-06-27T01:25:50Z")
> [@scotandrsn](#): > > I fail to see how the greening of the African Desert has anything to do with terraforming the low-gravity permafrost on Mars. They’re not comparable at all. Both the scenarios you mention involve moving liquid water from nearby places where it’s already plentiful to places where it isn’t. You don’t have that option on Mars. Sure, there might be ice under the frozen desert, but you have no guarantees of using it for irrigation. Yea, I can’t see how developing strains of plants that survive in desert condictions and produce high yield could POSSIBLY be useful on MARS. Under the same logic, working on solid-state engines won’t ever get us closer to breaking C, so it is kinda pointless to work on anything. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > If we can set up a self-sustaining agricutlural operation on the Moon, however, Mars should be a piece of cake. You work on that, tell me when you’ve got something. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/93 "2004-06-27T01:30:16Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Then you might as well kill yourself now, because you’re _never_ going to find one you’re happy with. Probably right. > [@](#): > > Why bother? Because if I point out something that I think they’ve done useful (like say, the internet), you’ll just be “ho hum” and go back to sleep. No, no, the Internet is nice and all. Makes stuff very accessible, much more efficient. I don’t see what that has to do with anything, though. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/94 "2004-06-27T01:40:04Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Yea, I can’t see how developing strains of plants that survive in desert condictions and produce high yield could POSSIBLY be useful on MARS. Except that we _don’t_ need to develop those kinds of plants, they already exist. Ever heard of cactus? Reversing desertification isn’t simply a matter of getting plants to grow in the desert, especially when human activity (deforestation, etc.) is responsible for the growth of the desert to begin with. > [@](#): > > Under the same logic, working on solid-state engines won’t ever get us closer to breaking C, so it is kinda pointless to work on anything. :rolleyes: Well, you’re the eternal pessimist, so I don’t get rolleyes. > [@](#): > > You work on that, tell me when you’ve got something. Why? You won’t be impressed. > [@](#): > > No, no, the Internet is nice and all. Makes stuff very accessible, much more efficient. I don’t see what that has to do with anything, though. Nothing, except that it was created by the US government (started out as a thing called DARPAnet) and then exploded once private industry got their grubby little mitts on it. You had no faith in government or industry being able to produce anything valuable or remarkable, I pointed out something that they both did which is generally accepted as being valuable and remarkable, with the comment that such an accomplishment would probably be greeted with a “Meh” response. Seems I was right. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/95 "2004-06-27T01:45:13Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Except that we _don’t_ need to develop those kinds of plants, they already exist. Ever heard of cactus? Reversing desertification isn’t simply a matter of getting plants to grow in the desert, especially when human activity (deforestation, etc.) is responsible for the growth of the desert to begin with. :rolleyes: OK, you go colonize Mars without ecologists, biologists, etc and current technology. > [@](#): > > Why? You won’t be impressed. You’d be surprised. > [@](#): > > Nothing, except that it was created by the US government (started out as a thing called DARPAnet) and then exploded once private industry got their grubby little mitts on it. You had no faith in government or industry being able to produce anything valuable or remarkable, I pointed out something that they both did which is generally accepted as being valuable and remarkable, with the comment that such an accomplishment would probably be greeted with a “Meh” response. Seems I was right. I never said that gov’t and industry never produced anything valuable and remarkable. I said they never did it unless it was profitable; ie, not for the common good. The Internet was most decidedly done for rather “greedy” purposes by all involved. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/96 "2004-06-27T01:54:39Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > :rolleyes: > > OK, you go colonize Mars without ecologists, biologists, etc and current technology. Huh? That makes no sense whatsoever. You made the claim that we’d somehow need to develop superplants to reverse desertification, I point out that it’s not necessary, and you tell me to colonize Mars with nothing. Tell you what, you give me $100 million, and I’ll use _current_ technology to reverse desertification. Heck, I’ll even give you change from that $100 million. > [@](#): > > You’d be surprised. Pardon me if I don’t hold my breath. > [@](#): > > I never said that gov’t and industry never produced anything valuable and remarkable. I said they never did it unless it was profitable; ie, not for the common good. The Internet was most decidedly done for rather “greedy” purposes by all involved. And _no_ good’s come out of it at all, huh? And Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, and HUD are all done for “greedy” purposes. What a depressing world you must live in. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/97 "2004-06-27T01:58:14Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Huh? That makes no sense whatsoever. You made the claim that we’d somehow need to develop superplants to reverse desertificatio Huh? Cite? > [@](#): > > I point out that it’s not necessary, and you tell me to colonize Mars with nothing. Tell you what, you give me $100 million, and I’ll use _current_ technology to reverse desertification. Heck, I’ll even give you change from that $100 million. Now we’re getting smoewhere. You get that $100 million and knock yourself out. > [@](#): > > And _no_ good’s come out of it at all, huh? And Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, and HUD are all done for “greedy” purposes. Nope, they’re all little measures of progress that people try to take back daily. > [@](#): > > What a depressing world you must live in. Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/98 "2004-06-27T02:07:29Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Huh? Cite? Scroll up. Oh wait, you’re probably too lazy to do that so I’ll just quote what you said. > [@Zagadka](#): > > Yea, I can’t see how developing strains of plants that survive in desert condictions and produce high yield could POSSIBLY be useful on MARS. > [@](#): > > Now we’re getting smoewhere. You get that $100 million and knock yourself out. Why? I’m _not_ the one concerned by it. _You_ are. I simply volunteered to do the dirty work if you coughed up the money. > [@](#): > > Nope, they’re all little measures of progress that people try to take back daily. Thus shooting down your claim that the government won’t do something unless it’s profitable. > [@](#): > > Bingo. I recommed therapy then. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/99 "2004-06-27T02:16:24Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Scroll up. Oh wait, you’re probably too lazy to do that so I’ll just quote what you said. Where the hell does that say “develop superplants to reverse desertification”? What drugs are you on, because I want some. O\_o I brought up two things: a plant that thrives in desert conditions and produces high yield, and (seperately) reverseing desertification. > [@](#): > > Why? I’m _not_ the one concerned by it. _You_ are. I simply volunteered to do the dirty work if you coughed up the money. You’re also the one siphoning off that money into funding Star Trek. > [@](#): > > Thus shooting down your claim that the government won’t do something unless it’s profitable. :rolleyes: Yes, because the world is a place of absolutes. > [@](#): > > I recommed therapy then. Would be nice if I had insurance of my own. Oh, wait, too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523/100 "2004-06-27T02:31:47Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Where the hell does that say “develop superplants to reverse desertification”? Well, you’re the one who believes that ordinary plants can’t be used to reverse desertification, so obviously it would take some kind of superplant. > [@](#): > > What drugs are you on, because I want some. O\_o At the moment, caffiene and nicotine, perhaps later I’ll get into some of my bourbon. > [@](#): > > I brought up two things: a plant that thrives in desert conditions and produces high yield, and (seperately) reverseing desertification. Except that’s not the way it’s worded, and we _don’t_ need to develop them, we _already_ have them. > [@](#): > > You’re also the one siphoning off that money into funding Star Trek. Show me where **one** government dollar in a social program was cut in order to pay Mr. Spock or Captain Kirk’s salary. Or that the government has _always_ spent it’s money on social programs and _not_ on things like the military. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Yes, because the world is a place of absolutes. You seem to act like it is. > [@](#): > > Would be nice if I had insurance of my own. Oh, wait, too bad. [You don’t need insurance to get treatment.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1878346342/qid=1088303380/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9/102-9073923-3593764?v=glance&s=books) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/space-travel-means-racial-survival/251523.md?page=6)