# Spanish elections: Further evidence that Europeans are pussies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272 "2004-03-14T20:28:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/141 "2004-03-15T18:57:17Z")
> [@theR](#): > > Maybe I missed some very important cite, but someone please point me to the place that will show me what pussies the socialists are guaranteed to be regarding terrorism. I have no trouble believing it considering how peaceful and appeasing all the other socialist governments of the world both past and present have been, but I just want the cite to show all my friends because they tend to be a little more skeptical than I. On the radio this morning I heard the new Socialist PM reiterate support for the war on terror. However they are also pulling Spanish troops out of Iraq, following the will of the Spanish people. Perhaps if the US had concentrated on AQ, instead of opening a second front in Iraq, the world would truly be safer. I can just imagine how stupid Europeans must consider us Americans after reading this thread. Sure, terrorism started with 9/11. If people cast their minds back 2 1/2 years, European support for the US was pretty much universal. It only dissipated after Bush’s unilateralism, and his lies about WMDs and the immediate threat of Iraq. But, I can certainly understand why Bushies would get upset at the example of a voting population tossing out a government because of lies. Must make them very nervous. And my condolences to all Spaniards and Madrilenos. I’ve only been to Madrid once, but it is one of my favorite cities in Europe. If I were able to go to Europe soon, it would be my first stop. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/142 "2004-03-15T19:16:47Z")
Spain was a very reluctant ally, whose presence was necessary to give a slight cover of ‘international coalition’ credibility to a policy that was clearly US led, created and enacted by the US for the US. It amazes me just how little credence some US posters give to ‘the rest of the world’. Yes, the US has this overweening sense of self-righteousness, but somewhere, at some level of logical thought, someone in the US administration must surely wonder why so much of ‘the rest of the world’ had so mant doubts when they had access to pretty much the same intelligence as the US itself. So now Spain has fallen out of love with a policy it had extreme reservations about, and no doubt Republicans in the US are wondering just how internationally threadbare their reactionary ideas are. The US has been advised again and again that it was making one heck of a stretch to link AQ with Iraq, that the evidence was very fragile and unsupported by verifiable data, the US was advised by even the UK that it would be better to try go the UN route. We in the UK still have huge doubts, very many of us think that the war in Iraq achieved the exact opposite of what the US said it would, despite unconvincing protestations by our own politicians. It is not usually a good idea to run two wars at once, AQ should have been destroyed first before any moves on Iraq. If a move on Iraq was so necessary whilst we were already engaged with AQ, it should have been due to an immediate and grave direct threat, and that should have been absolutely and unequivically and transparently provable. It was not any of these things, and meanwhile US and Briitsh and UN personnel are being taken out one by one. This steady progression will have political consequencies, for as yet all we appear to have is a less safe world, a whole new radicalised population in Iraq plus ever more propaganda material for the recruiters of terrorists. Aznar was exceedingly badly served by the US which pretty much set him up for a fall when the case for war evaporated, in a mountain of falsehoods and suppositions. I imagine US citizens might fell let down by Spain, but in reality Spain has been let down by the US. The US administration is full of pussies, they are pussies because they could not bring before themselves the courage to accept that they might actually have been wrong in their rubbish assessment of intelligence, for that would have meant admitting that the assessment of other agencies - especially foreign agencies - reflected reality better. The US administration is full of pussies because they are too scared to admit that for all the talk, they were wrong on almost every assertion they made about Iraq, about the only assertion that the US administration made that was true then and is verifiably true now, is that Saddam Hussain is exceedingly unpleasant but then there was never any dispute about this. The US administration is full of pussies because it had to act on US generated polices wether they were right wrong or just incompetant, they have to continue along the path they have chosen because to do otherwise would be to lose face, and the US administration is too weak in its moral self to be able to concede this. The US administration is full of pussies because they dare not admit to themselves that others might actually have better ways of dealing with Iraq. The US administration has not yet provided a convincing demonstration or discussion that would show the policies of other nations and organisations would not work, it has though provided a pretty convincing study of some of the risks of instant fix internationalism, quick military solutions without long term planned goals, and just making it all up as you go along. The US administration is full of pussies because if it admits there were better ways of handling this situation, if it concedes that others were right, the US administration is fearful of the political consequencies in November. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/143 "2004-03-15T19:52:15Z")
The loopy reasoning in this thread would be comedic if it weren’t being made at the expense of my second-favourite country in the world. We’ve had a number of people now who said something to the effect of: > [@](#): > > The situation was read. The catalyst set. The catalyst detonated. People died. The sought after outcome by those who set the catalyst occured. > > I perfectly understand the reasoning of the spanish electorate. That doesnt change the corollary implications one bit. “I perfectly understand the reasoning of the Spanish electorate.” So you understand the part about support for the war being just about as low as it’s possible to measure _a year_ before the attacks? I mean, you could hardly fail to; Madrid and Barcelona had some of the world’s highest turnouts for the 15/02/2003 protests against the war, which were the largest mass protest movement in the world (possibly until a quarter of Spain protested on Friday). But no, you say, **whatever** the reasoning of the Spanish electorate, no matter for what reasoning they voted out the PP, _it doesn’t matter_ because of the “corollary implications” you impute to Sunday’s election. No matter why the PSOE won, it will make al-Qaeda feel good. Spaniards could have voted against Rajoy because they didn’t like his beard; it wouldn’t have mattered because, as you see it, it would look to al-Qaeda like they could affect the outcome of the election by blowing trains up. So the question is, _just what the fuck were they supposed to do?_ Should they have thought, “Oh no! We just lost 200 people! We have to look tough in front of the terrorists! Vote PP!” Just how _exactly_ would that _ **not** _ be letting the terrorists affect democracy??!! Can you possibly be arguing that it would have been _preferable_ for Spaniards to vote for a government they didn’t want because their trains were blown up?! I can’t think of anything more “pussyish” to vote for a government that supports policies you hate because you’re afraid of what the terrorists might do. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/144 "2004-03-15T20:06:48Z")
> [@](#): > > I find it disturbing that an election was potentially swayed by terrorists. Well, President Bush is pinning his hopes for re-election on terrorists. Without 9/11 he’s a total chump. So his campaign strategy is to try and sway us at every opportunity by mentioning… terrorists. I also find it disturbing. But more disturbing to me is this entire thread. I can remember in the days after 9/11 the support we got from pretty much every country in the world, including Spain. Now Spain suffers a similar tragedy, and some Americans response is… to call them pussies. You make me ashamed of my country, acting this way in public. The most sincere apology I can offer to the people of Spain will be in November when I help to vote Bush out of office. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/145 "2004-03-15T20:16:58Z")
> [@hazel-rah](#): > > But more disturbing to me is this entire thread. I can remember in the days after 9/11 the support we got from pretty much every country in the world, including Spain. Now Spain suffers a similar tragedy, and some Americans response is… to call them pussies. You make me ashamed of my country, acting this way in public. Indeed. I wish I could muster one-fifteenth of the vitriol that would have been sent at anyone who behaved this way after 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/146 "2004-03-15T20:47:45Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well they seemed to have taken their time and learned. Too long naturally. Does this justify the US going down the same road and doing the same mistakes ? Hardly. > > European over-reluctance to fight should balance over-enthusiasm of americans do dish out damage. A middle way would be ideal. You never miss a chance to bash the US, do you? Even when you have to quote someone completely out of context to do so. I clearly noted that both statements were _non sequiturs_. Give it a rest… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/147 "2004-03-15T20:48:10Z")
> [@hazel-rah](#): > > But more disturbing to me is this entire thread. I can remember in the days after 9/11 the support we got from pretty much every country in the world, including Spain. Now Spain suffers a similar tragedy, and some Americans response is… to call them pussies. You make me ashamed of my country, acting this way in public. > > The most sincere apology I can offer to the people of Spain will be in November when I help to vote Bush out of office. Well said. Given any terrorist action in the US, can’t you hear them say that a vote for Kerry is a vote for appeasing terrorists? I wonder what would have been the result of the Spanish government had been honest? I suspect they’d have won. Anyone care to hazard a guess? ---
**Author:** ![far\_born](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@far\_born](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/far_born)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/148 "2004-03-15T21:17:42Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Is the current “punishment vote” against the Spanish leadership evidence that the U.S. really must act unilaterally, not being able to rely on other countries for assistance? This reminds me of the old “have you stopped beating your wife yet?” question. IOW it masquerades as a question, but inherent in answering the question is an underlying assumption. No. The “punishment vote”, if it was that, doesn’t mean anything of the sort. Although it might imply that the US might want to pick it’s wars a little more carefully and not justify them with lies/incompent intelligence if it wants the support of other nations. It also might mean that those who toady to US wishes whilst ignoring the wishes of their populace will get their asses whipped the next opportunity said populace gets chance. It might mean that the European voting population actually showed some intelligence therefore we can’t on them to follow stupid US policies. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/149 "2004-03-15T21:33:28Z")
> [@](#): > > “I perfectly understand the reasoning of the Spanish electorate.” So you understand the part about support for the war being just about as low as it’s possible to measure a year before the attacks? Who claimed to not understand the reasoning of those who voted against the administration for its support of the war? The point of this thread is that prior to the bombing, the polls apparently put the then current administration comfortably in the lead. The bombing occurred, many people apparently called Aznar a murderer, and he lost the election. Sources have been posted pointing out that people stated they voted against him because of the bombing. None of this has to do with the war in Iraq; it’s about people who changed their votes because Aznar was somehow responsible for the bombing. ---
**Author:** ![Rocza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce7236/32.png) [@Rocza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocza)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/150 "2004-03-15T21:48:15Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > The point of this thread is that prior to the bombing, the polls apparently put the then current administration comfortably in the lead. Dude, it’s been pointed out before that your information is incorrect. Several posters have pointed out in this thread, and the associated thread in the pit, that immediately _prior to the bombings_, the lead had closed until it within the margin of error of the poll. Unless you’re arguing that Spaniards are somehow psychic and anticipated the bombing, it looks like the race was going to be tight anyway. > [@](#): > > The bombing occurred, many people apparently called Aznar a murderer, You causality is lacking, I pointed out and cited that Aznar was called a murderer long before this. > [@](#): > > and he lost the election. Well we agree that he lost the election. Without more evidence, which you’ve been unable or unwilling to bring to the table, the implied causality here is lacking. > [@](#): > > Sources have been posted pointing out that people stated they voted against him because of the bombing. Sources have pointed out that the ire over the bombings are because of the attempted manipulation of information over the event. In this thread, there have been numerous cites about that. Do you think that people should re-elect those who lie to them about the source of terrorism? Especially when they are doing it out of self-serving interests? > [@](#): > > None of this has to do with the war in Iraq; it’s about people who changed their votes because Aznar was somehow responsible for the bombing. Nonsense. I already pointed out that people were calling Aznar a murderer because of Iraq, others have pointed out that Aznar’s actions in Iraq were incredibly unpopular in Spain and his attempted manipulation of information were probably due to his unpopularity over Iraq since Al-Queda has said that they will target Coalition countries. And I second what hazel-rah said. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/151 "2004-03-15T21:54:12Z")
“Comfortably” in the lead? Hmmmmm. I’ve seen a bunch of various cites with varying opinions and varying numbers. Now, I’m not at all familiar with the Spanish press, but is it too wild a conjecture to suppose that the papers that supported the Conservatives are the ones who predicted a “comfortable” victory, while the left papers said “too close to call”? Isn’t that how it works here? Bush’s poll numbers have an advanced case of political leprosy, yet his tame pundits are breezily unconcerned (though you can’t really see a twitching sphincter on TV…) Further, you overlook a lot of possibilities. No doubt, the bombing provoked people to vote who might otherwise have stayed home. It might very well have been that they were relatively undecided. The Spanish troops were scheduled to come home anyway, they might well have considered it over and done with, not worth kicking up a fuss. Now maybe they weren’t actually lying when they tried to deflect attention to the Basque seperatists, heaven knows its easy to believe what you desperately need to be true, evidence of that abounds amongst us (see Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, _et. al_). But that simply has to be percieved as political snake oil. Either they were deliberately fudging the facts, or they shot themselves in the foot with a machine gun. Why in the world did they think they were going to get away with it? Did they think they could get past Election Day and say “ooopsy!”? [cue _Dragnet_ theme] Dumb da dumb dumb. Dumb da dumb dumb _dumb._[/cue] ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/152 "2004-03-15T22:01:22Z")
> [@Rocza](#): > > Dude, it’s been pointed out before that your information is incorrect. Several posters have pointed out in this thread, and the associated thread in the pit, that immediately _prior to the bombings_, the lead had closed until it within the margin of error of the poll. Unless you’re arguing that Spaniards are somehow psychic and anticipated the bombing, it looks like the race was going to be tight anyway. It was my understanding that there was a fairly large swing in the polls (6%?) from immediately prior to the bombing to the actual vote. I believe that this has been shown in the media, including cites on in this thread. I was not aware that the bombing did not affect the polls. > [@Rocza](#): > > You causality is lacking, I pointed out and cited that Aznar was called a murderer long before this. But here the cute games again. If you want to simply ignore the question and make up your own, there’s no reason to even post. The point made was not those who called him a murderer because of the killing in Iraq; the point was those who called him a murderer as responsible for the Madrid bombings. If you want to change the question, you might as well make up anything else you want as well. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/153 "2004-03-15T22:04:17Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > None of this has to do with the war in Iraq; it’s about people who changed their votes because Aznar was somehow responsible for the bombing. And _how_ are people saying that Aznar bears responsibility for the bombing? Surely that _is_ relevant to the discussion at hand, non? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/154 "2004-03-15T22:30:19Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > No, we don’t like be a ‘colonial’ power. For a century though instead we set up ‘client states’ in which generic right-wing puppet leaders were installed to make certain that those countries did what WE wanted and not what their populations wanted. Examples: Nicaragua/Somoza, Chile/Pinochet, Vietnam/Rhee. Let’s not forget Iraq/Hussein. **Voodoochile** : do the words [post hoc ergo propter hoc](http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/posthoc.htm) mean anything to you? ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/155 "2004-03-15T22:34:49Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > And _how_ are people saying that Aznar bears responsibility for the bombing? > Surely that _is_ relevant to the discussion at hand, non? It is? It matters? It’s okay to murder civilians if their leaders make mistakes, and one places the blame on the leaders for the murders? In other words, Aznar’s policies irritated the terrorists, proof in that is that we were bombed, so we are changing our mind and voting against him? Here’s a cite that shows a 4% lead for PP on March 8, 2004: \4 point lead in the polls\ ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/156 "2004-03-15T22:59:50Z")
At this point over 10,000 words have been written by 150 posters so let’s review what has been said per sentence count…\* Condemnations of Al Queda for killing and maiming 1700 people\_\_\_4 Condemnation of the United States for liberating Iraq\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_46 Condemnation of President Bush for freeing Iraq\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_33 Condemnation of fellow Dopers for calling Europeans pussies\_\_\_\_\_12 Advice to the Spaniards to join the US in chasing Al Queda\_\_\_\_\_\_\_0 Apologies for the Spaniards who voted, in effect, for _detente_ with Al Queda\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_54 \*\* These counts have been skewed with the intent to cut down on quibbles by prissy pedants of whom plenty are resident here.\* ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/157 "2004-03-15T23:08:36Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > At this point over 10,000 words have been written by 150 posters so let’s review what has been said per sentence count…\* > > Condemnations of Al Queda for killing and maiming 1700 people\_\_\_4 > Condemnation of the United States for liberating Iraq\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_46 > Condemnation of President Bush for freeing Iraq\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_33 > Condemnation of fellow Dopers for calling Europeans pussies\_\_\_\_\_12 > Advice to the Spaniards to join the US in chasing Al Queda\_\_\_\_\_\_\_0 > Apologies for the Spaniards who voted, in effect, for _detente_ > with Al Queda\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_54 > > \*\* These counts have been skewed with the intent to cut down on quibbles by prissy pedants of whom plenty are resident here.\* The counts aren’t the only thing skewed about that post. Care to try that again without the extremist spin? ---
**Author:** ![Rocza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce7236/32.png) [@Rocza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocza)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/158 "2004-03-15T23:11:45Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > It was my understanding that there was a fairly large swing in the polls (6%?) from immediately prior to the bombing to the actual vote. I believe that this has been shown in the media, including cites on in this thread. I was not aware that the bombing did not affect the polls. Isn’t a 6% swing within the margin of error of the polls? And I have not argued that the bombing did not affect the polls-I was refuting your earlier comment that Aznar’s party was “comfortably” in the lead. Not all the polls showed that as other posters have already cited. That “lead” directly _before_ the bombing was within the margin of error of the polls; that’s not what I would call a “comfortable” lead. > [@](#): > > But here the cute games again. If you want to simply ignore the question and make up your own, there’s no reason to even post. I was not aware that posting on these boards was limited to those agreeing with you. > [@](#): > > The point made was not those who called him a murderer because of the killing in Iraq; the point was those who called him a murderer as responsible for the Madrid bombings. And do you have any evidence that these people changed their mind? That people were calling him a murderer for Madrid and _not_ for Iraq? Seems to me that if I’ve been calling someone a liar for a while and then something happens, that it’d be pretty stupid to say that I’m calling them a liar because of that something. I pointed out that the Spanish people were _previously_ calling Aznar a murderer because of Iraq-do you have any evidence that they are now calling him a murderer _simply_ because of the bombings? I would be willing to accept that but I would like to see some evidence of that position. So far, you’ve produced none. I also note that you’ve ignored the fact that the Spanish people might be justifiably upset at the attempted manipulation of information by Aznar’s gov’t about the bombings. Why do you feel that is unimportant? I know I’d be pissed as hell if I found out that my government was doing that and would be very inclined to vote them out simply based on that. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/159 "2004-03-15T23:31:25Z")
> [@Rocza](#): > > Isn’t a 6% swing within the margin of error of the polls? And I have not argued that the bombing did not affect the polls-I was refuting your earlier comment that Aznar’s party was “comfortably” in the lead. Not all the polls showed that as other posters have already cited. That “lead” directly _before_ the bombing was within the margin of error of the polls; that’s not what I would call a “comfortable” lead. Well, the cite I recently posted is now making it look like it may have actually been a 9% swing. You may be right about the polls though, do you have any showing the opposition party in the lead prior to the bombings, or any that show no change or a gain by PP from pre-bombing polls to the election? > [@Rocza](#): > > I was not aware that posting on these boards was limited to those agreeing with you. It certainly isn’t. Posting in a thread should be generally limited to discussing the topic that was presented. The topic presented here was not, “Were some Spanish voters annoyed that Aznar lied,” or “Did some Spanish voters want to vote against Aznar for reasons other than the bombings?” > [@](#): > > And do you have any evidence that these people changed their mind? That people were calling him a murderer for Madrid and _not_ for Iraq? > I also note that you’ve ignored the fact that the Spanish people might be justifiably upset at the attempted manipulation of information by Aznar’s gov’t about the bombings. Why do you feel that is unimportant? I know I’d be pissed as hell if I found out that my government was doing that and would be very inclined to vote them out simply based on that. It’s unimportant to this thread because it was not the question asked. It may be important to some other question. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272/160 "2004-03-15T23:45:35Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > It’s unimportant to this thread because it was not the question asked. It may be important to some other question. You still claim that you look simply for an answer to your one question and that the other paragraphs you added are simply opinion added for good measure and flavour. But if you are not looking for a debate, why did you post this in great debates? In a debate, one side brings up an argument and of course the other side is free to present issues that contradict that argument, even if it means providing some peripheral information. To look pouty and say “It’s unimportant, please answer just my question!” is poison for a debate… So again, why did you post in great debates? As for the answer to your question: “Is the current “punishment vote” against the Spanish leadership evidence that the U.S. really must act unilaterally, not being able to rely on other countries for assistance?” My answer would be - Not in my opinion, but act unilaterally, if you feel that you must. That still doesn’t lend any credibility to the U.S. action in the first place, though. Strange enough you claim your question has got nothing to do with Iraq, even though the complaint of the USA acting unilaterally stems from the Iraq issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-elections-further-evidence-that-europeans-are-pussies/234272.md?page=9)