# Spanish help!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [April 16, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113 "2003-04-16T16:51:55Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@green\_bladder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/green_bladder)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/1 "2003-04-16T16:51:55Z")
Ok, gotta couple of questions here…
1. The subjunctive tense in Spanish (e.g. vaya, hagas etc) has boggled me quite a bit. I know that there is no such equivalent in English, but when exactly do we use the subjunctive? I need a layman’s explanation 🙂
2. Reflexive verbs (e.g. lavarse, lesionarse, convertirse): How does the structure of the sentence supposed to look like?..
Is this correct? eg: Va a convertirle jefe de la empresa.
And do I need to use the subjunctive in the above sentence?
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### Author:  [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/2 "2003-04-16T17:34:23Z")
The subjunctive isn’t a tense. It’s a mood.
Layman’s explanation of it. Buena suerte!
The subjunctive mood and reflexive verbs were always the parts of Spanish I screwed up. I just don’t use the subjunctive. I don’t speak of anything that isn’t concrete!
About the only example of a verb in English that changes from the indicative mood to the subjunctive mood is “was”. In the subjunctive, it’s “were”.
As in “If I were president, I would make everyone happy.”
But I’m not president, I’m just saying what would happen if I happened to get that job.
That explanation can only be described as half-assed.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/3 "2003-04-16T17:44:42Z")
Llamame cuando hayas cenado = Call me when you have had dinner.
Llamame cuado te hayas lavado = Call me when you have washed yourself
Van a nombrarle jefe = he is going to be appointed manager
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### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/4 "2003-04-16T17:46:26Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by green\_bladder \*
> **1. The subjunctive tense in Spanish (e.g. vaya, hagas etc) has boggled me quite a bit. I know that there is no such equivalent in English, but when exactly do we use the subjunctive? I need a layman’s explanation 🙂**
Sure we do – “I ask that you be on time every day.” We’re losing it, though. A lot of people would just simply say, “I ask that you’re on time every day.” In English the subjunctive mood is usually done with the inifinitive (but drifting towards conjugating as above), and in Spanish with a declension. Sometimes the subjunctive sounds a little ghetto in English, so it’s often avoided: “I think he be crazy.” Other times we futurize it so there’s no difference noted: “I doubt that that he will be on time.”
> [@](#):
>
> **2. Reflexive verbs (e.g. lavarse, lesionarse, convertirse): How does the structure of the sentence supposed to look like?.. Is this correct? eg: Va a convertirle jefe de la empresa.**
Yes. But that’s not reflexive. That’s an indirect object, like “Toss him the ball.” You mean something like "I wash myself: “Me lavo.” Oh, on second thought, if you mean “he’ll make himself boss” instead of “he’ll [another he] make him boss” then in Mexican Spanish they’d say “convertirse” and it’s reflexive like you thought. You could also say “Se va a convertir jefe.” You can swap the position of the “se” like that. There’s a slight chance I could be wrong, though, since my wife always breaks this rule and says “pasale” (singular) or “pasankle” (plural) although I would use “se” or even “les.” So, who knows?
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*And do I need to use the subjunctive in the above sentence? \*\*
Nope. It’s indicitive. You could say “Ojala que sea el jefe,” which’d be subjunctive.
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### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/5 "2003-04-16T18:04:17Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by BobT \*
> \*\*The subjunctive isn’t a tense. It’s a mood… About the only example of a verb in English that changes from the indicative mood to the subjunctive mood is “was”. In the subjunctive, it’s “were”.
>
> As in “If I were president, I would make everyone happy.”
>
> But I’m not president, I’m just saying what would happen if I happened to get that job.
>
> That explanation can only be described as half-assed. \*\*
**BobT** brings up a good point. Which _tense_ of the subjunctive? My examples were present. **BobT** ’s were imperfect tense. In English, though, we do (at least are supposed to) change for present subjunctive, too. Coincidently both our examples used “to be,” so here’s a present subjunctive that’s not: “I ask that he join us on time every day.”
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### Author:  [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/6 "2003-04-16T19:35:49Z")
A simple way is that the subjuntive is similar to the formal command form but it follows another verb…
¡Vaya!=Go!
Quiero que se vaya - I want you to go (formal).
Reflexive pronoun placement usually goes before the verb (me, te, se, nos , os, se). Direct object pronouns are the same except se- le, and they are placed after the verb, in conjuction.
“se va a convertir jefe…”
But when you have an indirect and direct object, the se is used for an object. “Daselo” - give it to him/her.
The “le” in “pasale”, “andale”, (or more in Mexican slang…“orale”, “echale”) and other such phrases is sort of rhetorical, as in English if we say “get to it”…when there may be no specific ‘it’ involved.
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### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/7 "2003-04-16T21:13:41Z")
Cool, **syncrolecyne**. You’ve given me another example:
“Nunca me he dado cuenta que ‘andale’ se trataba de ‘andar.’” I’d always figured it for a pure, rhetorical exclamation. Knowing that -le is “sort of rhetorical” has given new depth to that word!
Literal translation: “Never myself/me have given count that ‘walk yourself’ [kind of] was treating itself of ‘walk.’” Hey, that’s why live interpretation isn’t as easy as you’d think. Come to think of it, neither is translation. And that’s an extremely simple sentence!
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### Author:  [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/8 "2003-04-17T00:52:48Z")
Probably simplified, without exceptions and nuances:
Subjuntives are used in subordinate clauses. The present form is used for things that occur in the present (or in the future, more on that). The past form is for past incidents. The future form is seldom found, and the present subjunctive form is used instead.
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### Author:  [@green\_bladder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/green_bladder)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/9 "2003-04-17T01:41:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by syncrolecyne \*
> \*\*
>
> Reflexive pronoun placement usually goes before the verb (me, te, se, nos , os, se). Direct object pronouns are the same except se- le, and they are placed after the verb, in conjuction.
>
> “se va a convertir jefe…”
>
> But when you have an indirect and direct object, the se is used for an object. “Daselo” - give it to him/her.
>
> \*\*
Ok… I am still going to study the subjunctive and try to make full use out of it as possible… but just out of curiousity 🙂 can one get by without using the subjunctive where its needed?
Someone just gave me, I thought it was worth mentioning this, a list of set phrases that would require the subjuntive. For example: eg. Es importante que, es necesario que.
Reflexives are still a killer though. So a reflexive verb would be to do something to one’s self? Lavarse? Lastimarse?
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### Author:  [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/10 "2003-04-17T10:23:02Z")
Green, yea, you’re right about the reflexive. And the two examples are right, lavarse and lastimarse are common reflexive verbs.
You have to use the subjunctive where it’s needed. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/11 "2003-04-17T10:58:40Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by green\_bladder \*
> \*\*Ok… I am still going to study the subjunctive and try to make full use out of it as possible… but just out of curiousity 🙂 can one get by without using the subjunctive where its needed?
>
> Someone just gave me, I thought it was worth mentioning this, a list of set phrases that would require the subjuntive. For example: eg. Es importante que, es necesario que.
>
> Reflexives are still a killer though. So a reflexive verb would be to do something to one’s self? Lavarse? Lastimarse? \*\*
I’ve gotten by without using the subjunctive, and I’m understood. _But_ I think native Spanish speakers (those I’ve met, anyway) are more tolerant of non-Spanish speakers than we United Statesians are of non-English speakers. However as you hear it more and more (watch the telenovela “El Vuelo de Aguila” – good language and neat history), you’ll get a clue as to when to use it. It’ll “sound” more natural than _not_ using the subjunctive. Like the language in whole, it’ll sort of automatically grow on you. However, I got this from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=subjunctive):
> [@](#):
>
> Subjunctive mood (Gram.), that form of a verb which express the action or state not as a fact, but only as a conception of the mind still contingent and dependent. It is commonly subjoined, or added as subordinate, to some other verb, and in English is often connected with it by if, that, though, lest, unless, except, until, etc.
Granted that’s for English, but it’s the same idea and the same words, _especially_ the “that” uses. In modern English we’ve grown away from using “that” in the subjunctive. We tend to say “I want him to go to the store” instead of “I want that he go to the store.” In Spanish the “that” form is only used; the former form doesn’t exist.
Reflexives always gave me trouble, too, because I didn’t know until using them a heck of a lot which verbs were reflexive or not. I could say “I bathe” and it’s obvious to me that “I bathe myself,” but in Spanish the reflexive is needed. There are a lot more reflexive verbs in Spanish than in English. I find that if I put “me” (when talking about myself) in 90% of my sentences to make the verbs reflexive, nobody minds! Seriously, though, I’ll come as you hear others.
Finally, [501 Spanish Verbs](http://www.referencehub.com/501_Spanish_Verbs_Fully_Conjugated_in_All_the_Tenses_in_a_New_EasytoLearn_Format_Alphabetically_Arranged_0812092821.html) is a pretty good reference. But even better is [this book](http://www.referencehub.com/Practice_Makes_Perfect_Spanish_Verb_Tenses_0844273341.html) for practicing and getting a really good sense of all of the tenses and moods in Spanish, including that dang subjunctive.
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### Author:  [@green\_bladder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/green_bladder)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/12 "2003-04-17T12:46:44Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Balthisar \*
> \*\*
>
> Reflexives always gave me trouble, too, because I didn’t know until using them a heck of a lot which verbs were reflexive or not. I could say “I bathe” and it’s obvious to me that “I bathe myself,” but in Spanish the reflexive is needed. There are a lot more reflexive verbs in Spanish than in English. \* I find that if I put “me” (when talking about myself) in 90% of my sentences to make the verbs reflexive, nobody minds! Seriously, though, I’ll come as you hear others. \*
>
> \*\*
Thanks for the tip **Balthisar** , it seems a safe way to get by 🙂 The book looks useful too.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/13 "2003-04-17T13:43:58Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Balthisar \*
> Reflexives always gave me trouble, too, because I didn’t know until using them a heck of a lot which verbs were reflexive or not. I could say “I bathe” and it’s obvious to me that “I bathe myself,” but in Spanish the reflexive is needed. There are a lot more reflexive verbs in Spanish than in English.
I do not think verbs are intrinsecally reflexive or not but rather they are used that way and most can be used both ways. You can bathe yourself or you can bathe your cat. In English it is just understood you mean yourself when you do not specify otherwise. In Spanish the subject is always specified in such phrases. In English “I masturbate” because it is understood I am referring to myself unless I specify otherwise. In Spanish I have to “masturbate myself” or masturbate someone else. I can’t just “masturbate”.
Also unnecessaryis to specify “I bought myself a car” when “I bought a car” would suffice and is understood. Spanish has been degenerating with the reflexive forms being abused and they are commonly used now where they should not. “I died” or “he died” should not be reflexive but they are used like that in most of Spain now which is bullshit. You cannot die someone else because that is killing and not dying. Also othr verbes like “I am leaving” are used reflexively in most of Spain which is the result of stupid affectations taking over and becoming mainstream.
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### Author:  [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/14 "2003-04-17T14:33:24Z")
OK, this may be a nitpick, but why is nobody in this thread using accent marks? Even the native speakers? Corrections:
“Llámame,” not “llamame.”
“Pásale,” not “pasale.”
“Ojalá que sea el jefe,” not “ojala.”
“ándale (in lower case to show accent mark),” not “andale.”
Sorry for the linguistically anal-retentive hijack.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/15 "2003-04-17T14:57:18Z")
Eva, I plead guilty to laziness both in English and Spanish. I find plenty of misspellings in my posts but I am too lazy to proof-read everything. I will accept my punishment (ojalá sea leve) with humility _\__
But let me comment further. All accents are not made equal and some are slightly less equal than others. There is no way I would leave it off “ojalá” as the word would be very obviously wrong. (BTW, the word is of Arabic origin and an invocation to Allah: “may God want it”).
But let us look at “llamame” which is really a compound word. Llama + me. Llama on its own carries no mark so llamame seems to me not so wrong even though the rules say it should carry the mark. So, when I’m feeling lazy I might leave some like that off whereas I would never leave others off. There are compound words enden in “mente” which the root does not have an accent and I always hate having to add it in the compund and I often don’t do it. “Delicadamente” means “de forma delicada” and looks to my eye perfectly well without any accents even though the dictators at the Real Academia have decreed it should have it.
You would not catch me dead saying “ándale” so there’s no risk there.
I do make an effort to express myself correctly and to spell correctly but sometimes the rules can be broken for good reason. For years I proposed that “CH” and “LL” were not letters at all no matter what the Academia said. Any idiot could see that. Finally they have come around and admitted it. I’m still waiting for them to relax the accents on compound words though. (Come to think about it I am making this up and I have no idea what the rules actually are and, for all I know, writing those words without accents may be legal.)
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### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/16 "2003-04-17T14:58:26Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \*
> **OK, this may be a nitpick, but why is nobody in this thread using accent marks? Even the native speakers?**
**Eva Luna** ’s absolutely correct. If I was (oops, “were”) (okay, I’d _never_ really say “was” but a lot of people do) (not offtopic!) using my Mac instead of this Win2K machine, it’d be super easy to write correctly. My apologies. On the Win2k box it’s just too much effort to cut and paste out of Character Map or to remember all of the alt-numeric-keypad codes.
On the other hand, my wife and some of my earlier Spanish teachers have told me about movements in the language that seek to eliminate accents. I think I’ll claim I’m just trying to move them along! 🙂
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### Author:  [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/17 "2003-04-17T15:17:05Z")
Well, I’m just as lazy as the next girl, which is why I’ve taken to writing most of my posts in Word and copying/pasting them onto the SDMB. I got stinkin’ sick of having the hamsters eat them. And it’s pretty simple in Word to deal with your run-of-the-mill accent marks. (Ctrl+ letter + ‘) It just drives me bonkers here in Chicago when I see posters in store windows, etc. in awful misspelled Spanish. I’m all for bilingualism, but if you’re going to use Spanish, at least do it correctly!
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### Author:  [@green\_bladder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/green_bladder)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/18 "2003-04-17T15:28:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \*
> \*\*OK, this may be a nitpick, but why is nobody in this thread using accent marks? Even the native speakers? Corrections:
>
> “Llámame,” not “llamame.”
>
> “Pásale,” not “pasale.”
>
> “Ojalá que sea el jefe,” not “ojala.”
>
> “ándale (in lower case to show accent mark),” not “andale.”
>
> Sorry for the linguistically anal-retentive hijack. \*\*
Now that you brought it up 🙂 Is there an easier way to insert “ñ” than Alt+164, which is what I normally use?
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### Author:  [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/19 "2003-04-17T15:51:49Z")
Eva… in some dialects, llamame is pretty much how it sounds, not llámame (ie, if someone from South America writes llamame, I’m not going to correct him/her).
Ojalá is ojalá always, as far as I known.
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### Author:  [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-help/169113/20 "2003-04-17T16:10:26Z")
**KarlGrenze,** : yeah, but as I understand it, that’s in relation to the regional “vos” verb form, which my Salvadoran college roomie (among others) would use intermittently. It’s a different verb form. If you’re using the tú verb form, then corect spelling/emphasis requires the accent.
I dunno about the ñ. I usually use the Insert menu in Word.
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