# Spanish in Ireland **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 11, 2002, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808 "2002-10-11T12:14:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![spitfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@spitfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spitfyre)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/1 "2002-10-11T12:14:29Z")
in todays straight dope was a classic question about the spanish in Ireland. the people of hte iberian penisula arrived in 2 ways; the first was as the Milasian invasion of Ireland in it’s prehistory, that was lightly touched on but the other way was during the Spainish Inquisition many of the Spanish Jews ran to the “ends of the earth” and as far as any knew back then that was Ireland, the last bastion of civilisation. ---
**Author:** ![li\_l\_Dickie\_Dirtz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@li\_l\_Dickie\_Dirtz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/li_l_Dickie_Dirtz)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/2 "2002-10-11T13:09:39Z")
Hey, **spitfyre** , just so’s you know, there’s going to be a bunch of people here (well, maybe not a bunch) pretty soon to ask you to back up your assertions with a citation(s). Something that can be independently verified, either online, in a book, etc. Just saying it ain’t going to cut it with these folks. Just warning you. Also, you should link to the column you’re refering to. Helps everyone out. [Here](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_077.html) [are](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_111.html) [three](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a930730.html) to choose from concerning the Irish. Which did you mean? Welcome to **Cecil’s House of Fun** (aka the SDMB). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/3 "2002-10-11T13:54:44Z")
According to this site on Jewish History– [http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1492-jews-spain1.html](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1492-jews-spain1.html) Most of the Spanish Jews fled to Italy or Sicily. And there were probably only around 250,000 in total. So, how could such a relatively small group have such a big impact on Irish demography? They’d have to being breeding like rabbits! As for the Milesians, they were not connected with the Jews, if they even existed beyond the realm of folklore. This site on Irish History– [http://members.tripod.com/~JerryDesmond/index-2.html](http://members.tripod.com/~JerryDesmond/index-2.html) Tends to back me up. From the Irish site– > [@](#): > > The scholarly evidence is reasonably consistent with Irish folklore, which holds that the three sons of King Mileadh of northern Spain – namely Heremon, Heber and Ir, together “the Milesians” after King Mileadh – invaded Ireland about the time of Alexander the Great (356-23 B.C.) and vanquished the Tuatha De Danan, who previously had gained superiority over the Fir Bolg (Picts) and the Fomorians. Virtually all of the later Gaelic rulers claimed to be descendants of Heremon or Heber. But Irish Folklore _also_ refers to the Milesians as “a race of giants”, so I dunno about the reality of their existance. But no Jew was ever a King in Spain. Besides, the Diaspora that spread Jews all over the world happened in the Roman Imperal era, not during Alexander the Great’s time. So, why would there be Jews in Spain at all, in that era? ---
**Author:** ![johncole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@johncole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johncole)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/4 "2002-10-11T14:46:01Z")
…from a Scot: > [@](#): > > _ **Cecil wrote** _ > … to help a combined force of Scotch and Irish defeat an English army … > [@](#): > > _ **Collins English Dictionary** _ > **usage** > … _Scotch_ is not used outside fixed expressions such as _Scotch whisky_. The use of _Scotch_ for _Scots_ or _Scottish_ is felt to be incorrect, esp when applied to persons. ---
**Author:** ![fhios](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@fhios](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fhios)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/5 "2002-10-14T22:53:31Z")
I’d always heard that the Irish came from Galicia Spain, hence our refering to ourselves as Gaelic. Anybody else have anything on this? ---
**Author:** ![\_catharsis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/f1d935/32.png) [@\_catharsis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_catharsis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/6 "2002-10-15T12:45:17Z")
Interesting twist - the Roman “historian” Tacitus, in his _Annals_ (no sniggering), said that the Spanish and the WELSH looked the same to him…although if memory serves he said that he didn’t know if this was because of interbreeding, an invasion or just because they were geographically very close and the climate had hammered them into the same shape. Which he described, incidentally, as swarthy and having curly dark hair. Like the “black Irish”, y’see. Hmm. Actually, it may’ve been in _Agricola_ - I just wanted to say _Annals_. **Dickie** - two of your three articles are the same. Not encouraging. ---
**Author:** ![li\_l\_Dickie\_Dirtz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@li\_l\_Dickie\_Dirtz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/li_l_Dickie_Dirtz)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/7 "2002-10-15T12:51:11Z")
I just did a search on “spanish irish” and posted the links that search yielded. I didn’t bother to look at them. Sorry ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/8 "2002-10-15T13:09:38Z")
Well, this editorial in a recent issue of _History Ireland_ is decidedly sceptical about the Milesians. > [@](#): > > \*\*The historic links between Spain and Ireland are intellectual, economic, political, religious and especially military. However there are no racial or genetic links. The Gaelic Irish we can categorically state do not have Spanish origins. When the Lebor Gabála Érenn—the Book of Invasions—was composed as an integrative myth for the peoples of Ireland with the Gaels top-dogs, its scholarly creators latched onto geographical ideas emanating from the other great intellectual fulcrum of early Christian Europe, Visigothic Spain. In this origin myth the sons of King Milesius of Spain (Míl Espáine) became the ‘Milesians’, the founders of the all-conquering Gaels of Ireland. \*\* This presumably summarises the argument of John Carey’s article, ‘Did the Irish Come from Spain? The Legend of the Milesians’, which appeared in the same issue. [http://www.historyireland.com/magazine/current.html](http://www.historyireland.com/magazine/current.html) And I second **johncole** on the Scotch/Scots issue. ---
**Author:** ![\_catharsis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/f1d935/32.png) [@\_catharsis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_catharsis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/9 "2002-10-15T14:19:00Z")
…as it was always explained to me, “Scotch is what a Scotsman drinks.” Of course, one has to deny the existence of the Scotch Egg to make that fit…but that’s just another argument in its favour. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/10 "2002-10-15T17:42:38Z")
There are only a handful of documented cases of Jews living in Ireland between their official explusion in 1290 and the late seventeenth century. In his book, _The Jews of Ireland_ (Jewish Historical Society of England and Israel Universities Press, 1972), Louis Hyman does note the following exception. > [@](#): > > \*\*Ireland did, however, afford a refuge to some Jewish victims of the Spanish and Portuguese explusions after 1492. It is unlikely that they ever attempted to establish a community or to celebrate their worship in public; their number must have been small and their residence of short duration, and it is not impossible that they subsequently removed to London or Bristol, where a little colony of Marranos or crypto-Jews from Spain and Portugal was already established at the close of the reign of Edward VI. (p. 5) \*\* So, **spitfyre** , while this could, dare one say it, be interpreted as undermining Cecil’s argument that, ‘There have been Jews in Ireland for generations’ (that depends on how many generations we’re counting), this does contradict your claim that significant numbers of Spanish Jews settled in Ireland ‘during the Spainish Inquisition’. ---
**Author:** ![spitfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@spitfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spitfyre)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/11 "2002-10-15T20:33:50Z")
I just said that some jews settled there. I do know that there are Jewish familys in the Galway bay area that claim to have been there since the Inquisition. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/12 "2002-10-16T12:05:33Z")
Well, Its not improbable that due to the economic and trade ties that us Irish and the Spanish had (and indeed, still have) that there was some “cross pollenation” so to speak. but not to the levels that would impress upon the gene pool in any large amount. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/13 "2002-10-16T12:44:20Z")
One might point out that, before the Romans and the Visigoths, the Iberian peninsula spoke a Celtic language. ---
**Author:** ![spitfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@spitfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spitfyre)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/14 "2002-10-16T22:42:31Z")
Has anyone ever heard the music of the Basques, it sounds very much like the music of Ireland. spitfyre ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/15 "2002-10-16T22:51:59Z")
Do you have a cite for this one? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John W. Kennedy \* > \*\*One might point out that, before the Romans and the Visigoths, the Iberian peninsula spoke a Celtic language. \*\* I assume it would also have to be before the Carthaginians ruled the Iberian pennisula? I recall reading that the Basques have lived on the Iberian pennisula for about as long as anyone has lived anywhere; i.e., from time immerial. I also recall being taught in a class that the Beaker people, one of the earliest inhabitants of the Iberian pennisula, built stone circles of the form common throughout Ireland and Great Britain (Is Ireland Less Britain?) and that the Beaker people may have been among the original inhabitants of “the Isles” (since I don’t know what to call all of them). However, the Gauls came later, and may not have been the same people. Plus, it is hard to imagine that the Spanish are all that genetically related to the Beaker people given the Carthaginians, the Romans, the Visigoths, and the Moors. (And why is it not PC to discuss “the original” crusade - the one in which Arabs conquered the Mideast?) ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/16 "2002-10-18T04:08:42Z")
No, it would be well after the Cathaginians and the Romans. The Visigoths held Spain from the sixth century and were the leading exponents of Arianism, also known as “the Arian Heresy,” which portrayed Jesus as a sort of very peaceable Hercules. I had always understood that the Irish began in Spain and migrated as the Romans and Carthaginians began to control the Iberian peninsula. Apparently, the article above refutes that. I’m not sure genetic evidence would clarify a connection between two populations separated by 2000 years and various invasions by different invaders. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/17 "2002-10-18T12:31:28Z")
**SlowMindThinking** , Great Britain is referred as such to differentiate it from Brittany, a region on the coast of France. Ireland is not referred to as Less Britain or Lesser Britain. Great Britain refers to the whole of England and colonies. The island of Eire (antiquated name?) is mostly an independant country of Ireland, with only the section of Northern Ireland that is English territory. Sometimes the collection is referred to as “The British Isles”. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/18 "2002-10-18T12:53:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Irishman \* > **…English territory. …** British Territory if you must. England != Britain ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/19 "2002-10-18T12:54:23Z")
and please != must. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808/20 "2002-10-18T13:16:06Z")
**Irishman** , “Éire” is simply “Ireland” in the Irish language. Also, AFAIK, Great Britain is simply the name of the large island that houses Scotland, Wales and England - not “England and colonies” (a quick reading of the history of the Act of Union of Scotland and England will indicate that it was originally a Scottish takeover - though it backfired). The easiest way to refer to Northern Ireland is “the section of Ireland that is part of the UK” - the UK being “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. The only thing about NI that is British is the preferred nationality of Unionists there. Perfectly simple! 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-in-ireland/131808.md?page=2)