# Spanish leader pulls troops from Iraq
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 18, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703 "2004-04-18T20:09:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/21 "2004-04-19T21:00:43Z")
> [@sailor](#):
>
> While the Spanish government was happy to do it, it was done at the request of the American government. Which is why I do not think you will see any American official blaming Spain for not waiting until June 30.
Oh, how I wish you’d been wrong on that one…
“Bush Scolds Spain for Iraq Troop Pullout”
> **[Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](https://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=%2Fap%2F20040419%2Fap_on_go_pr_wh%2Fbush_spain_7)**
>
> The latest news and headlines from Yahoo! News. Get breaking news stories and in-depth coverage with videos and photos.
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### Author:  [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/22 "2004-04-19T21:06:22Z")
> [@gum](#):
>
> Well, Whatever the consequences for Bush and his merry man, [The Spanish people are sitting pretty.](Radical Muslim cleric welcomes Spain’s troop withdrawal from Iraq ).
>
> I’m afraid Al Qaeda _does_ think they made Spain withdraw. [never mind the Muslim cleric is as mad as a sick cow]
beg pardon - link isn’t working.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/23 "2004-04-19T21:11:49Z")
> [@sailor](#):
>
> It happened in WWII, the Falklands and Kuwait. It should serve as a lesson that victory generally depends much more on having wide world support than in military might and that the world generally does not side with the agressors.
3 examples. Snort. I seriously doubt that ‘generally’ ‘The agressors’ lose, historically speaking. We’ll see how THIS time plays out in the years to come. Personally I still think it could go either way at this point…the ‘war’ is by no means lost (yet).
> [@sailor](#):
>
> The world always derives satisfaction is seeing the agressor defeated and humiliated.
And when this doesn’t happen (such as in Vietnam, where the North was the aggressor, or in say Eastern Europe by the Soviets, or myriad other times throughout history where ‘The Aggressor’ won) the world generally just has its thumb up its ass and is happy anyway. The world I think is a pretty fickle thing…
> [@swami](#):
>
> What does this mean for the coalition and the US? What will be Bush’s next move? And also, how will this effect Iraqis?
It means nothing for the coalition…as has been stated the Spanish were already going to be doing this. It was no great shock. Bush’s next move? God knows…it seems we’ve really stuck the old crank into a hornets next in Iraq and we are walking on a knife blade atm…it could go either way. I doubt it will have much effect on the Iraqis either way to be honest. Now, appearently it IS having some effect on AQ…they are seeing this in the light of a major coup for them. THAT is disturbing, if they decide to play games when it comes to our own election time.
-XT
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### Author:  [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/24 "2004-04-19T21:26:43Z")
> [@Spiny Norman](#):
>
> Y’know, if that’s a swipe at Mr. Simmons, you may want to look up a few of his posts, get an idea of whom you’re addressing and hopefully realize that he has earned the right to address issues as war, politics and freedom in a way that you or I haven’t.
It’s nice that you have such high regards for Simmons but if that’s an attempt at an appeal to authority, I’m not overtly impressed. I judge each post by its own merit, and as far as I’m concerned no one has earned the right to anything. And when I see a post that contain things like “Out[sic] Flight Suit In Chief” and little else of content, I’m not going to grovel in awe because the poster, which is undoubtedly true for Simmons, has made some stellar contributions elsewhere.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/25 "2004-04-19T21:37:32Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#):
>
> Oh, how I wish you’d been wrong on that one…
>
> “Bush Scolds Spain for Iraq Troop Pullout”
>
> [http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040419/ap\_on\_go\_pr\_wh/bush\_spain\_7](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040419/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_spain_7)
Eva, the American government has expressed displeasure with Spain pulling out but not specifically with them “not fulfilling the promise to stay until June 30”.
A lot of that rhetoric is for internal American consumption because the withdrawal is being done in an orderly and safe manner. The order is to leave as soon as circumstances permit to do it safely and in order. It is not like they are leaving tomorrow morning without warning. Not at all.
You will not see any note of protest from the US government complaining the Spanish had promised to stay until June 30. Or do you really think the US government wants this to be in the news for the next couple of months? They prefer this to be over and forgotten as soon as possible.
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### Author:  [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/26 "2004-04-19T21:59:59Z")
> [@Rune](#):
>
> And when I see a post that contain things like “Out[sic] Flight Suit In Chief” and little else of content, I’m not going to grovel in awe because the poster, which is undoubtedly true for Simmons, has made some stellar contributions elsewhere.
I would not expect anyone to grovel in awe. On the other hand, I do believe Mr. Simmons deserves quite a bit of common friggin’ respect.
And with that, I plead guilty to threadjacking and will leave.
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### Author:  [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/27 "2004-04-19T22:04:24Z")
> [@sailor](#):
>
> You will not see any note of protest from the US government complaining the Spanish had promised to stay until June 30. Or do you really think the US government wants this to be in the news for the next couple of months? They prefer this to be over and forgotten as soon as possible.
No, I don’t think they’d want to keep this in the news, but I also think you’ll agree that some of the current administration’s Iraq policy has had some unintended consequences. 😉
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/28 "2004-04-19T22:16:26Z")
> [@Rune](#):
>
> It’s nice that you have such high regards for Simmons but if that’s an attempt at an appeal to authority, I’m not overtly impressed. I judge each post by its own merit, and as far as I’m concerned no one has earned the right to anything. And when I see a post that contain things like “Out[sic] Flight Suit In Chief” and little else of content, I’m not going to grovel in awe because the poster, which is undoubtedly true for Simmons, has made some stellar contributions elsewhere.
Mr. Simmons was an army aviator during WWII. He’s earned the right to razz the Pres for his flight suit stunt.
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### Author:  [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/29 "2004-04-19T22:22:44Z")
> [@SimonX](#):
>
> Mr. Simmons was an army aviator during WWII. He’s earned the right to razz the Pres for his flight suit stunt.
Is that so? Well in that case I retract my statement unreservedly.
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### Author:  [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/30 "2004-04-19T23:03:59Z")
> [@sailor](#):
>
> Now Spain can watch the match from the outside. America very arrogantly went against the rest of the world. Fine. Don’t blame the rest of the world if now they choose to stand by and watch to see what happens. We shall see how this unfolds but if America gets its ass kicked in Iraq, as seems more likely every day, many millions around the world are going to be very happy. And you can thank GWB for having given them that satisfaction.
> .
What does seem likely is not that we will get our ass kicked, but that we will not be able to preside over the orderly transition to democracy. And that’s simply because I don’t think it’s going to happen. Nor can there be reconstruction until the insurgents stop [bombing their own country](http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/8571197p-9499524c.html). Which means the economy will continue to tank, investors will continue to be scared off, and this could go on for decades. Sure, the rest of the world can watch from the sidelines, and rejoice when we finally do give it up and leave. But, when one of these religious fascist nuts then takes over, the rest of the world, and I think Europe in particular, can expect a tidal wave of refugees who do not like living under religious fascism.
> [@](#):
>
> In case the link doesn’t work, the relevant text in the above link, from the Sacramento Bee 3/19/04 is:
>
> Depressing as recent events have been - there have been several more bombings in Baghdad this week - there is no immediate prospect of things getting better. U.S. officials say they remained committed to a June 30 deadline to transfer sovereignty in Baghdad to Iraqis - but which Iraqis? It will be a real challenge to shape an interim government that, while likely to remain largely a U.S. creature, has credibility with Iraqis as it moves to draft a constitution and prepare for election of a permanent government.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/31 "2004-04-19T23:06:25Z")
> [@Nithotep](#):
>
> beg pardon - link isn’t working.
That’s because he screwed it up. Here’s an article with the title he tried to link to:
[Radical Muslim cleric welcomes Spain’s troop withdrawal from Iraq](http://www.abc.net.au/ra/newstories/RANewsStories_1090644.htm)
> [@](#):
>
> Moqtada Al Sadr has urged other countries with troops in Iraq to follow the example of Spain and save the lives of their soldiers.
**Gum** also seems incapable of distinguishing Sadr from bin Laden.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/32 "2004-04-19T23:17:55Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#):
>
> What does seem likely is not that we will get our ass kicked, but that we will not be able to preside over the orderly transition to democracy. And that’s simply because I don’t think it’s going to happen. Nor can there be reconstruction until the insurgents stop [bombing their own country](http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/8571197p-9499524c.html). Which means the economy will continue to tank, investors will continue to be scared off, and this could go on for decades. Sure, the rest of the world can watch from the sidelines, and rejoice when we finally do give it up and leave. But, when one of these religious fascist nuts then takes over, the rest of the world, and I think Europe in particular, can expect a tidal wave of refugees who do not like living under religious fascism.
This problem is entirely the making of the USA and whether Spanish forces stay or leave it will make no difference to the end result. The USA made the problem. There were plenty of warnings that this would be what would happen but GW went ahead anyway. Let him fix it, don’t blame Spain now. He said he could handle it singlehandedly. Okay, let’s see him do it.
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2004, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/33 "2004-04-19T23:36:51Z")
In my opinion anyone has the right to razz GW for his flight suit stunt.
I believe that Bush’s emotional development stopped at about age 19. That he is given to juvenile stunts like the flight suit, cowboy boots and John Waynesque manure like “Bring it on.”
As other have said in[this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=250892) he often seems uninvolved. He appears to think that once he has delegated something he has no need to follow up. I cited a _News Hour_ bit on Condoleeza Rice’s 9/11 Commission hearing in which he claimed not to have the slightest idea what she was going to say.
I make no apology whatever for thinking that GW is at most fit to be a city councilman in a small town.
I’ve been accused of not respecting the Office of President on this board and in person. I have lots of respect for the Office. I just wish those who put GW in it had a little more.
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### Author:  [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/34 "2004-04-20T01:27:15Z")
> [@David Simmons](#):
>
> In my opinion anyone has the right to razz GW for his flight suit stunt.
>
> \
>
> I’ve been accused of not respecting the Office of President on this board and in person. I have lots of respect for the Office. I just wish those who put GW in it had a little more.
Bravo!
I sooooooooo love your posts Mr Simmons. 😃
Bravo, I say!
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/35 "2004-04-20T02:10:06Z")
> [@David Simmons](#):
>
> I make no apology whatever for thinking that GW is at most fit to be a city councilman in a small town.
And I would think the same even if I had been a draft dodger who hid out the war in the basement.
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/36 "2004-04-20T02:35:29Z")
> [@David Simmons](#):
>
> In my opinion anyone has the right to razz GW for his flight suit stunt.
IMHO, Americans have an _obligation_ to razz our politicians for these kinds of stunts.
Your experiences lend a special credence to your judgements about matters related to the military and aviation.
I agree with you that the silliness of GWB exists independently of your life and your actions.
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### Author:  [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/37 "2004-04-20T03:55:24Z")
[Honduras to Pull Its Troops Out of Iraq](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=4872463)
> [@](#):
>
> TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras (Reuters) - In a blow to President Bush and his coalition partners in Iraq, Honduras followed Spain on Monday in announcing it will pull its troops out of the country.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/38 "2004-04-20T04:34:39Z")
With all the flap about other countries’ troops pulling out of Iraq, it occurred to me to wonder if there was a similar trend among the international militaries fighting in Afghanistan. I noticed that in fact, the incoming Spanish government had arranged to double its [forces in Afghanistan](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/29/spain.troops.ap/) (which brings their total deployment up to only 250, but it’s still a symbol of commitment):
> [@](#):
>
> Zapatero has called both the war and the occupation illegal because they lacked a mandate from the United Nations.
>
> His party sees Afghanistan as totally different because the occupation is sanctioned by the United Nations and the troops overseeing the country’s reconstruction after the U.S. attacks that toppled the Taliban in 2002 are under NATO command.
>
> The Spanish troop contingent in Afghanistan will be doubled from 125 to 250 in August, Fernandez said.
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/39 "2004-04-20T04:44:27Z")
> [@SimonX](#):
>
> IMHO, Americans have an _obligation_ to razz our politicians for these kinds of stunts.
>
> Your experiences lend a special credence to your judgements about matters related to the military and aviation.
>
> I agree with you that the silliness of GWB exists independently of your life and your actions.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound snippish. I appreciate the defense but it wasn’t really necessary. I’ve lived too long and seen too many real “sticks and stone” to pay any mind to words about me that come from some disembodied spirit out of cyberspace.
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/40 "2004-04-20T12:43:34Z")
> [@David Simmons](#):
>
> Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound snippish. I appreciate the defense but it wasn’t really necessary. I’ve lived too long and seen too many real “sticks and stone” to pay any mind to words about me that come from some disembodied spirit out of cyberspace.
There’s been a disturbing and odd trend, (from my PoV), toward trusting politicians. I can’t imagine why more of my fellow GOPers aren’t embarassed by some of the silliness comiong out of the WH.
What happened to a healthy dose of cynicism toward pols and their rhetoric?
It seems as if, for some, 9-11 suddenly made (GOP) pols honest. To me this is scary in that it undermines the checks and balances that come from the electorates healthy, well-developed skepticism toward politicians and government in general.
While you and you opinions certainly neeeded no defense, esp not from me, your status gives your opinions the ability to cut through some of the morass of rhetoric and misguided trust and belief.
There’s a meme floating around that who makes a statement can influence the statement’s validity. You’re blessed to’ve earned the capacity to be above simple-minded, ad hom, dismissals. Your words aren’t as easily ignored through this fallacy.
Once again, you’re a part of who we Americans need. This time we need your guidance and opinions, right and wrong, as distinguished greybeards.
Thanks.
So, I wasn’t doing it to defend you so much as I was citing your credentials as an “qualified expert.”
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