# Spanish leader pulls troops from Iraq
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 18, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703 "2004-04-18T20:09:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 12
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/61 "2004-04-21T13:00:39Z")
> [@sailor](#):
>
> Socialist’s lousy timing? For who was it lousy? For Spain it could not come soon enough.
We already discussed this and I’m not going to reopen the discussion. It was lousy timing in that it now _appears_ like (whether they did or not) they gave in to terrorists pressure. It is my opinion that they should have postponed the demands (to the US) and announcements a few month to put some air between the withdrawal and the terrorist demands – so as to let things cool down a bit and remove all suspicions of appeasement.
One doesn’t have to look long to see such suspicions are indeed now widespread. The Socialists could have avoided all such suspicions (and still got out of Iraq) with just a little better timing.
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### Author:  [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/62 "2004-04-21T13:05:33Z")
> [@Rune](#):
>
> Is that so? Of course I might, in the heat of the moment, outside the pit have called someone else an idiot (and if so I apologise). Can’t remember exactly doing so though. But you’ll undoubtedly show me where exactly, since you’re so sure.
I’m not talking about you calling people idiots you are however quite dismissive of people who don’t share your rather right wing(from my perspective anyway) feelings about certain things.
Anyway I should have kept my big mouth shut as it’s only hijacking a perfectly good thread. Sorry for the quick snipe. I apologise.
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/63 "2004-04-21T13:37:47Z")
> [@sailor](#):
>
> The Dominican Republic and Honduras are also pulling out. If it was lousy for the USA then they might want to take it into account next time they start wars against the will of the entire world.
[And Poland too, apparently](http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/21/iraq.poland.reut/)
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### Author:  [@ponderer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ponderer)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/64 "2004-04-21T13:43:54Z")
“The trains in Spain fall gently on the plain…”
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/65 "2004-04-21T14:17:16Z")
> [@ponderer](#):
>
> “The trains in Spain fall gently on the plain…”
And how do the skyscrapers fall in America?
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### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/66 "2004-04-21T14:21:55Z")
> [@ponderer](#):
>
> “The trains in Spain fall gently on the plain…”
That’s some nasty shit, man.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/67 "2004-04-21T14:22:31Z")
> [@sailor](#):
>
> And how do the skyscrapers fall in America?
Noisily, and with great billowing clouds of dust.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/68 "2004-04-21T15:56:09Z")
> [@SimonX](#):
>
> [And Poland too, apparently](http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/21/iraq.poland.reut/)
I’m only half-surprised by this move. There has been some political issues in Poland, recently, but I don’t think it’s the main reason.
The Polish/Spanish stance involved many things beyond war in Irak. They shared the same position on several EU-related issues, in particular the opposition to the incoming EU “constitution”, the influence middle-sized EU countries will be able to retain, and were both worried by the Franco-German leadership of the EU, and wanted to counter-weight it.
I mean that choosing to side with the USA wasn’t only related to their opinion about the Iraki issue, nor merely a way to attract Washington’s goodwill. There was clearly a Spain/Poland axis within the EU, willing to distance itself from france and Germany, and to limit their dependance on the EU (hence to rely more on other sources of diplomatic/economical/whatever influence : namely the USA) . The new spanish governement choose not only to withdrew its troops, but also to stop trying to block the EU constitution, and to operate a rapprochement with Paris and Berlin on EU-related issues. As a result, Poland was isolated within europe, and is in the process of changing its stance too because it doesn’t have much other sensible choices.
Wuthdrawing troops from Irak is IMO only a part of the whole package. Poland isn’t and never was very worried about Irak or Saddam Hussein. If siding with the US becomes counter-productive (i.e. whatever they can expect from Washington in return for their involvment is worth less than what they’re going to loose by finding themselves isolated in the EU), then withdrawing their troops from Irak is a quite logical consequence.
The Polish stance has been an extremely pragmatical approach (“What are we going to gain? What are we going to lose?”), IMO (contrarily to, for instance, the Italian one, which was mostly ideological. Berlusconi supported Washington for a large part because the american position fit better his own worlview). And until now, as far as I can tell, they didn’t gain much by supporting Washington. So, it’s not much of a surprise that they aren’t very commited and are envisioning to leave now, when the situation has changed.
By the way, i would add that Britain stance has been very different. Blair tried as much as he could (and quite succesfully IMO) to be constructive and influential within the EU, including in the military domain (the negociations concerning the future european forces have significantly progressed, recently) while at the same time backing Washington re. Irak. The two issues were clearly left apart. That’s why I stated that Poland would have found herself isolated, despite the presence of a USA-supportive UK . Her policies re. Irak and re. the EU weren’t independant, and its overall stance was at odds with the UK policies too.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/69 "2004-04-21T16:41:52Z")
By the way, according to an article I’m reading, El Salvador, Ukraine, Japon, Australia, Bulgaria and Thailand have all officialy stated they did not intend to withdraw their troops. South Korea sent new military personnel in Irak (engineers and medics).
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/70 "2004-04-21T16:52:13Z")
I am quite amused and entertained by the childish fits and tantrums some sectors in the USA are throwing. The Wall Street Journal hadan editorial where it called Zapatero “Generalissimo” and pretty much said Spain had sunk back to the dark years of Franco when it was isolated from the civilised world. Never mind the facts that Spain is returning to policies which bring it closer to Europe and that it was the USA who propped up the Franco dictatorship.
I am very glad the Spanish troops are being withdrawn because it is the right thing to do but seeing how it annoys the neo-imperialists is just icing on the cake and the more fits and tantrums they throw the more I will enjoy it. If they had any dignity or any intelligence they would learn about the stiff upper lip and pretend they didn’t even notice. I love it when they make fools of themselves like that. It’s so unbecoming. I am reminded of the French humiliating the English in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
> [@](#):
>
> we fire arrows at the tops of your heads and make castanets out of your testicles already! Ha ha!
> illegitimate faced buggerfuls!
> And, if you think you got nasty taunting this time, you ain’t heard nothing yet!
> now go away or I shall taunt you a second time-a!
> Daffy English kn-nig-its! Thpppt!
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### Author:  [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/71 "2004-04-21T19:34:34Z")
> [@Rune](#):
>
> Way to go Estilicon. Brand any opinion that differs from your own as idiotic. That’s the way to keep an open discussion. _clap_ _clap_
>
> btw. You’re not the only one who has followed Spanish television, and the discussion has mostly been about why Spain elected the socialists in the first place (which let to their withdrawal), as well as the socialist’s lousy timing. My advice: do at little reading and come back when you have something relevant to contribute with, eh?
Actually Rune, I said he was either an idiot or he didn’t make a proper research. You sound like a nice guy, I will go as far as to say than in your case the problem is, lack of research.-
The socialist said they were going to pull the troops the moment they reach power. They did so, of what timing are you talking about? This may come as a shock but most countries don’t let muslim terrorist to change their foreign policy.-
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-leader-pulls-troops-from-iraq/240703/72 "2004-04-21T19:56:26Z")
It seems it was only yesterday that the USA was threatening those countries which did not support the war with being shut out of the lucrative contracts of the new Iraq. It seems now that not many countries are begging to be let in to Iraq, rather quite the contrary. The USA was planning an easy economic colonization of Iraq but it is [reaping something quite different](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001906489_kuwait18m.html). No wonder other countries are having second thoughts about participating in Iraq.
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