# Spanish Main **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 6, 2006, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729 "2006-01-06T12:37:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Roger\_D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@Roger\_D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_D)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/1 "2006-01-06T12:37:59Z")
Well, OED says 5. a. ellipt. for MAIN SEA: The high sea, the open ocean. Now poet. 1579-80 NORTH Plutarch, C. Marius (1595) 468 The winde stoode full against them comming from the maine [F. le uent se tourna du costé de la pleine mer]. 1601 R. JOHNSON Kingd. & Commw. (1603) 211 They dare not venter into the maine, but houering by the shore, timerously saile from one place to another. 1695 WOODWARD Hist. Earth I. 27 The Tides and Storms…affect only the superficial parts of the Ocean,…but never reach the greater Depths, or disturb the bottom of the Main. 1698 FROGER Voy. 65 A gentle Breeze came off from the Main [F. du large]. 1731 POPE Ep. Burlington 198 Bid the broad Arch the dang’rous Flood contain, The Mole projected break the roaring Main. 1764 GOLDSM. Trav. 410 To traverse climes beyond the western main. 1847 TENNYSON Princess VII. 21 As one that climbs a peak to gaze O’er land and main. fig. 1597 R. JOHNSON Champions (1608) II. Addr., But having better hope I boldly leade thee to this mayne from this doubtfull floude where I rest. 1602 MARSTON Ant. & Mel. IV. Wks. 1856 I. 46 Launched out Into the surgy maine of government. 1839 LONGFELLOW Ps. of Life viii, Sailing o’er life’s solemn main. And I don’t think they’re all pirates, except Tennyson, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/2 "2006-01-06T13:45:16Z")
[Link](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_017a.html) to the original column ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/3 "2006-01-06T22:04:47Z")
One of “Uncle Cecil’s” more classically incorrect answers. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/4 "2006-01-07T01:59:15Z")
And, once again, Cecil is correct. Cecil was asked > [@](#): > > What was the Spanish Main? Some well-meaning Guest comes in here and gives you a post from the respected OED. Trouble is, he/she copied the wrong definition for _main_. There is more than one definition and more than one entry. The correct entry is meaning number 4b, \* not\* the meaning given in number 5. > [@](#): > > b. hist. = Spanish Main s.v. SPANISH a. > > 1890 J. CORBETT Sir F. Drake iii. 33 Drake…sailed once more for the Main. 1897 W. E. HENLEY Hawthorn & Lavender (1901) 95 The trim Slaver…Held…Her musky course from Benin to the Main, And back again for niggers. 1988 Oxf. Illustr. Encycl. III. 337/1 The ‘Main’ is intimately linked with early struggles to control Caribbean trade. You see, while there was a meaning in the 1500’s for _main=main ocean_, the term **Spanish Main** doesn’t appear until the end of the 19th century. I leave you to draw your own conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/5 "2006-01-07T03:28:20Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > And, once again, Cecil is correct. > > Cecil was asked > > Some well-meaning Guest comes in here and gives you a post from the respected OED. Trouble is, he/she copied the wrong definition for _main_. There is more than one definition and more than one entry. > > The correct entry is meaning number 4b, \* not\* the meaning given in number 5. > > You see, while there was a meaning in the 1500’s for _main=main ocean_, the term **Spanish Main** doesn’t appear until the end of the 19th century. > > I leave you to draw your own conclusion. **samclem** , did you even bother to read what “Cecil Adams” said in the brief article linked? He said: 1. Original meaning equals Spanish Mainland. 2. Later usage by English pirates referenced the Carribean itself. Now the OED definition you quote doesn’t say anything about Spanish Main until late 1800’s. By which time, of course, there were no such things as English Pirates, nor a Spanish Mainland (the land had long since become independent). So the OED definition you quote appears at best to demonstrate a retroactive application of the term “main” to the continental possessions. This is at variance with "Cecil Adams’ " explanation. Now let’s apply some logic to this. There was a term “main” which was used to describe deep water (as opposed to coastal waters). This usage went back to periods contemporaneous with the existence of the Spanish Main (that is, the Spanish controlled Carribean). We are supposed to accept that, despite this usage for “main,” there developed some 300+ years subsequently a usage of “main” limited to the “Spanish Main” in which the “main” meant not the “main = ocean” but “main = mainland.” We are THEN supposed to accept that somehow this usage mutated again to mean the Carribean, rather than the continental coast, the only citation for which in your quote comes from the Oxford Illustrated Encyclopedia of 1988? Color me quite doubtful. Color me **convinced** that “Cecil Adams” didn’t know what he was talking about in his article. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/6 "2006-01-07T04:10:46Z")
I find that late a cite for Spanish Main by the OED to be very surprising. From the early 1500s, the southern shores of the Caribbean Sea were called in Spanish simply _Tierra Firme_, or “Mainland,” in distinction to the West Indies. The Caribbean itself was at first referred to as part of the _Mar del Norte_, or “North Sea,” in distinction to the _Mar del Sur_, “South Sea,” the Pacific (which was south of the Isthmus of Panama where it was first discovered by Balboa). From _The Early Spanish Main_, by Carl Ortwin Sauer (1966): > [@](#): > > Tierra Firme continued to be the common name for the south side of the Caribbean . It was translated into English as the Spanish Main. . . . The whole of the Caribbean area came to be known in English as the Spanish Main, including the Sea. Thus sailing _to_ the Spanish Main became called sailing _on_ the Spanish Main. By this extension and transfer of meaning the the English language acquired the first inclusive name for Tierra Firme, the West Indies islands, and the intermediate sea. Sauer is not clear about the time period he is referring too, but it would appear to be long prior to the 1800s. Sauer was one of the most respected historians in the field, so if Cecil got it wrong he’s in good company. A very quick glance at accounts of the voyages of Drake (in Hakluyt’s _The Principall Navigations, Voiages and Discoveries of the English Nation_, 1589) and the accounts of the pirates Esquemeling (_Pirates of the Americas_, 1678) and Dampier (_A New Voyage Round the World_, 1697) does not turn up immediate references to the Spanish Main as such. However, Dampier does refer to the coast of Panama as Tierra Firme, in accord with the Spanish usage. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/7 "2006-01-07T04:14:08Z")
Pardon MY mistake. I posted too hastily, but Cecil was still correct. I just had to do what the OED said==see _Spanish_. Under _Spanish Main_, the OED says > [@](#): > > b. Spanish Main, the mainland of America adjacent to the Caribbean Sea, esp. that portion of the coast stretching from the Isthmus of Panama to the mouth of the Orinoco; in later use also, the sea contiguous to this, or the route traversed by the Spanish register ships. Now Hist. > > 1725 SLOANE Jamaica II. 297 This is brought from the Spanish Main, or Continent of America. 1765 Phil. Trans. LV. 50 The portrait of a child born of negro parents upon the Spanish main. 1803 J. BURNEY Disc. in South Sea I. i. 7 That part of the continent, since known by the names of Terra Firma, and the Spanish Main. 1839 LONGFELLOW Wreck Hesperus iv, Then…spake an old Sailor, Had sailed the Spanish Main. 1890 J. CORBETT Drake viii. 110 Cartagena was the capital of the Spanish Main. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/8 "2006-01-07T04:16:03Z")
That’s better. Seems as if Sauer and Cecil got it right, then. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/9 "2006-01-07T13:54:03Z")
That is certainly better evidence. But I’ve still got this nagging wonder as to when, actually, the idea of sailing **on** the Spanish Main entered the lexicon; given that the word “main” already meant deep water, one would suspect it was an easy word association. Still, at least the origin of the term would be in line with the Straight Dope article. I may retract my criticism of the article. 😛 “Sailing, sailing, over the bounding main…” ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/10 "2006-01-07T13:55:00Z")
That is certainly better evidence. But I’ve still got this nagging wonder as to when, actually, the idea of sailing **on** the Spanish Main entered the lexicon; given that the word “main” already meant deep water, one would suspect it was an easy word association. Still, at least the origin of the term would be in line with the Straight Dope article. I may retract my criticism of the article. 😛 “Sailing, sailing, over the bounding main…” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/11 "2006-01-07T18:07:18Z")
I would agree that the usage of “main” for the open ocean could have had some influence in the extension of the term Spanish Main from the mainland of the southern Caribbean area to include the sea off its shores. The earliest citations of the OED, from 1725, does indicate it was at this stage being used to refer to the continent, rather than the sea, however. Panama was at the heart of the old Spanish Main, and from my window I can see the sites of several battles between the Spanish and pirates who had marched across the isthmus from the Caribbean. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/12 "2006-01-07T19:41:58Z")
Tierra Firme does not translate to “Main” land. It does, however, equal in meaning the word “mainland” in English. In order for the assertion that “tierra firme” got translated to “Spanish Mainland” then chopped short to “Spanish Main” to have some credence, one would presumably find examples of reference to the “Spanish Mainland” before any reference to the “Spanish Main.” It is not entirely impossible that the actual sequence was to conflate the “Spanish Main” (meaning the Spanish-ruled ocean) with the mainland owned by Spain at some time, thus becoming the Spanish Main = Spanish coast of Central and South America. As **samclem** usually points out, in the absence of evidence of derivation of the term, one is on shaky ground making assumptions about its derivation. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/13 "2006-01-07T19:58:52Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > In order for the assertion that “tierra firme” got translated to “Spanish Mainland” then chopped short to “Spanish Main” to have some credence, one would presumably find examples of reference to the “Spanish Mainland” before any reference to the “Spanish Main.” Not really. The English word “main” all by itself can simply mean “mainland,” so that “[Spanish] Main” _is_ a direct translation of _tierra firme_. From Merriam-Webster: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: 1main > Pronunciation: 'mAn > Function: noun > Etymology: in sense 1, from Middle English, from Old English m[AE]gen; akin to Old High German magan strength, Old English magan to be able; in other senses, from 2main or by shortening – more at MAY > 1 : physical strength : FORCE – used in the phrase with might and main > **2 a : MAINLAND** b : HIGH SEA > 3 : the chief part : essential point \ > 4 : a pipe, duct, or circuit which carries the combined flow of tributary branches of a utility system > 5 a : MAINMAST b : MAINSAIL Bolding mine. This implies, I think, that the use of the word “main” to mean “mainland” preceded its use to mean “high sea,” but the OED should be able to shed some light on the sequence of meanings. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/14 "2006-01-08T00:54:39Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Bolding mine. This implies, I think, that the use of the word “main” to mean “mainland” preceded its use to mean “high sea,” but the OED should be able to shed some light on the sequence of meanings. OED: > [@](#): > > 1. a. Short for MAINLAND n. Now arch., U.S. regional, and Caribbean regional. > > 1555 R. EDEN tr. Peter Martyr of Angleria Decades of Newe Worlde f. 351, At .iii. leaques of the mayne, there is .xv. fadome. 1577 R. HOLINSHED Hist. Eng. 62/1 in Chron. I, The Ilande, which for the quantitie thereof may well be called a maine, although it be enuironed about with the Ocean sea. 1600 J. PORY tr. J. Leo Geogr. Hist. Afr. ii. 50 Not far from the main are certaine dry and rockie isles. 1698 J. FRYER New Acct. E.-India & Persia 14 The most traded Empories here, are St. Augustine on the Island [sc. Madagascar], and Mosambique on the Main. 1711 R. STEELE Spectator No. 11 5 The Achilles, in some distress, put into a Creek on the Main of America. 1756 P. BROWNE Civil & Nat. Hist. Jamaica II. ii. 221 Logwood. This shrub was first introduced to Jamaica from…the main. 1823 BYRON Don Juan VII. xxxi, Their Delhis mann’d some boats and…tried to make a landing on the main. 1839 C. THIRLWALL Hist. Greece VI. l. 196 The island…was separated from the main by a channel half a mile broad. 1891 J. WINSOR Columbus xiii. 290 He was anxious to make a thorough examination of Cuba, which was a part of the neighboring main of Cathay, as he was ready to suppose. 1895 C. L. EDWARDS Bahama Songs & Stories Frontisp., Channel between a ‘Cay’ and ‘the Main’. 1908 G. S. WASSON Home from Sea iii. 107 He says there wa’n’t any place left on the main at this day o’the world where some of 'em hadn’t lit, and sp’ilt everything for poor folks. 1975 J. GOULD Maine Lingo 174 I’m going to the main tomorrow. 1982 Dict. Bahamian Eng. 128/2 The Main…is still used in [Miskito Coast Creole English] for Central America and in [Trinidadian Creole English] for South America. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/15 "2006-01-08T02:48:01Z")
Just a minor contribution from a relatively famous source: > [@](#): > > No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the **main**. --from John Donne, Meditation XVII, 1624 ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/16 "2006-01-08T04:14:20Z")
Well, then, apparently a dual meaning for the word was achieved at roughly the same time. In that case, it would be easily understood that the Spanish Main could mean the mainland owned by Spain, even though the word also was applied to the ocean depths. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-main/338729/17 "2006-01-08T04:25:32Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > 1555 R. EDEN tr. Peter Martyr of Angleria Decades of Newe Worlde f. 351, At .iii. leaques of the mayne, there is .xv. fadome. It’s particularly interesting that the earliest citation from the OED for the use of “main” in the sense of “mainland” is to the first English translation of the works of Peter Martyr d’Anghera, the Royal Chronicler at the court of Spain during the period of the first discoveries. Peter Martyr was one of the first historians of the New World, and included accounts of the West Indies and Tierra Firme in his \*De Orbe Novo. \* While more context would be necessary to be sure, it is possible the translator was here using “mayne” to translate Tierra Firme.