# Spanish Minister offers a hearty Fuck You to Cuban political prisoners. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2007, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740 "2007-04-04T17:50:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/21 "2007-04-05T14:56:57Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] The Chinese typically do not respond consistently or well to our efforts, but at least the item is on the U.S.-China agenda. [/QUOTE] The same way the freedom of Tibet is on the agenda of somebody who puts a bumper sticker on their Volvo. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/22 "2007-04-05T14:59:43Z")
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke] The Spanish foreign minister referred to Cuba’s political prisoners as “…mercenaries financed by a foreign power to subvert the internal order.” Surely, refusing US aid would ensure that their cause is “pure.” Spain is looking out for its own interests. Not toadying to a special interest group. But–without Florida, where would Bush be? He’s got to stay in good with the folks who helped put him in the White House. [/QUOTE] I agree with your post. One rather large caveat: the quote comes from the _Cuban_ minister. Moratinos would have never said or implied as much. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/23 "2007-04-05T14:59:44Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] One last point: our prior policy of simply not talking to the regime, was doing precious little (read: nothing) for those very same **vociferous** dissidents. At least now, by opening-up diplomatic venues it is something that can be placed on the agenda when the time feels right. [/QUOTE] Hold on, I agreed with everything you posted until this part. Vociferous dissidents? I had to look up the definition to make sure that vociferous means the same in English as in Spanish. How do you qualify Cuban dissidents as vociferous? They have absolutely no public voice inside Cuba, no access to any media, no methods of publications, nothing. Outside the island their story is either ignored or brushed off, and their voices rarely heard because many of them are either imprisoned or gagged by the Cuban government, so how do you see them as vociferous? ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/24 "2007-04-05T15:05:26Z")
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke] The Spanish foreign minister referred to Cuba’s political prisoners as “…mercenaries financed by a foreign power to subvert the internal order.” Surely, refusing US aid would ensure that their cause is “pure.” Spain is looking out for its own interests. Not toadying to a special interest group. But–without Florida, where would Bush be? He’s got to stay in good with the folks who helped put him in the White House. [/QUOTE] No, it was the Cuban minister who said that. I’m not sure why you’re bringing Bush or Florida into this discussion, neither one was featured at the meeting. As to refusing US aid, I have no idea how much if any US money has made it to the hands of Cuban dissidents, and I suspect neither do you. And on preview I see someone else has pointed out the error of your attribution. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/25 "2007-04-05T15:31:02Z")
[QUOTE=lalenin] Hold on, I agreed with everything you posted until this part. Vociferous dissidents? I had to look up the definition to make sure that vociferous means the same in English as in Spanish. How do you qualify Cuban dissidents as vociferous? They have absolutely no public voice inside Cuba, no access to any media, no methods of publications, nothing. Outside the island their story is either ignored or brushed off, and their voices rarely heard because many of them are either imprisoned or gagged by the Cuban government, so how do you see them as vociferous? [/QUOTE] By “vociferous” I meant the ones that are clamoring NOW about the actions of the Spanish Government. The same ones BTW, that refused to meet with the Spanish attaché that Moratinos left in place. (Perdona, pero no se permite hablar en otro idioma que no sea ingles aqui. No es mi intencion ser confuso en forma alguna. Al contrario soy de la vieja escuela de “al pan, pan, y al vino, vino” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/26 "2007-04-05T15:34:08Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] By “vociferous” I meant the ones that are clamoring NOW about the actions of the Spanish Government. The same ones BTW, that refused to meet with the Spanish attaché‚ that Moratinos left in place. (Perdona, pero no se permite hablar en otro idioma que no sea ingles aqui. No es mi intencion ser confuso de ninguna manera) [/QUOTE] No problem at all, it may sometimes take me a little longer and a few trips to [this dictionary](http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp) but sooner or later I figure out what most posters are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/27 "2007-04-05T15:57:46Z")
So in other words, Spain cozying up to dictators is just business? Should I now expect to never again see you complaining if the United States ever does something similar? We cozy up to the Saudis because we need all that delicious light sweet crude. Spain cozies up to Castro because they want the trade opportunities. And it’s all good, nations should do what is best for their economy with no concern for the human rights records of countries they prop up? Just wanna get this straight. Human rights in other countries…is no concern and should be no concern for any people or governments outside those countries? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/28 "2007-04-05T16:03:07Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Hopefully she’s the one that’s right though – I’d hate to see yet another vicious and bloody revolution break out – and they can make some sort of peaceful transition into a social democracy. [/QUOTE] I hope so too, but remember, neither the exiles nor the Republicans **want** Cuba to become a social democracy. They would rather it become . . . well, what it was before the revolution, or something near. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/29 "2007-04-05T16:06:00Z")
BTW, **lalenin,** what would **you** like Cuba to become post-Castro? ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/30 "2007-04-05T17:52:10Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] BTW, **lalenin,** what would **you** like Cuba to become post-Castro? [/QUOTE] Politically I like the Canadian model, but that may be too much to hope for. I particularly like the Canadian system of multiple parties and coalitions, although to be honest the nuances of differentiation sometimes escape me. From what I’ve read this is pretty much the political system in Cuba pre-revolution and pre-Batista. Economically I would also like the Canadian model, a basically capitalist economy with a broad social net. By the way, I disagree with your statement regarding what Cuban exiles want for Cuba, I have been to Miami a few times and all the exiles I met there had been born after the revolution, so I don’t think there’s a large population looking for a return to Batista days. From my own experience I would say the Cuban exiles I met would not mind seeing a USA style system, both politically and economically. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/31 "2007-04-05T22:52:03Z")
[QUOTE=lalenin] By the way, I disagree with your statement regarding what Cuban exiles want for Cuba, I have been to Miami a few times and all the exiles I met there had been born after the revolution, so I don’t think there’s a large population looking for a return to Batista days. From my own experience I would say the Cuban exiles I met would not mind seeing a USA style system, both politically and economically. [/QUOTE] If you don’t mind my saying so, I think you’re actually agreeing with what **BG** said, for Batista’s Cuba was as close as we’ve come in Latin America to having “a USA style system.” Problem lies in the endemic corruption we\* have at all levels – same as during Batista’s time, where you had a minority ruling elite in concordance with any number of American Companies raking in all the dough. I remember that Havana was dubbed the “Paris of the Antilles” back then as it was basically the playground of the rich and famous…you know, gambling, women, drugs, booze, etc. In fact, my father loved going there to party…and where he met my Mom, yet another Spanish immigrant in Cuba. As for the other part of your post, I totally agree with it and although it won’t be easy – precisely because of what BG mentions – I hope you guys can pull it off. Perhaps between the EU and the Dems you can make it happen and not go back to what ails most of Latin America to this day. \*I say “we” because even though I’m a born and bred Spaniard, I also have close personal and business ties to the Dominican Republic, where I currently reside. Perfect example of “an American-style democracy” run amok. Not unlike Batista’s Cuba if I were to hazard a guess. Wish you and your country men and women all the best. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/32 "2007-04-05T23:24:59Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] I remember that Havana was dubbed the “Paris of the Antilles” back then as it was basically the playground of the rich and famous…you know, gambling, women, drugs, booze, etc. [/quote] Sounds like that would make it the **Vegas** of the Antilles, but who had heard of Vegas then? Maybe the Monte Carlo or San Tropez of the Antilles. [QUOTE=RedFury] In fact, my father loved going there to party…and where he met my Mom, yet another Spanish immigrant in Cuba. [/quote] You’re the son of the “Cuban Superman,” aren’t you? Admit it. 😉 [QUOTE=RedFury] As for the other part of your post, I totally agree with it and although it won’t be easy – precisely because of what BG mentions – I hope you guys can pull it off. Perhaps between the EU and the Dems you can make it happen and not go back to what ails most of Latin America to this day. [/QUOTE] When you say that, are you thinking of Venezuela or Colombia? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/33 "2007-04-06T00:11:36Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Sounds like that would make it the **Vegas** of the Antilles, but who had heard of Vegas then? Maybe the Monte Carlo or San Tropez of the Antilles. [/quote] I wasn’t joking. There are actually a [ton of cites](http://www.google.com.do/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=6oG&q=Paris+of+the+Antilles+%2B+Havana&btnG=Search) that back that up. I _think_ one of the reasons was that the world-famous Copacabana was Cuba’s answer to the Moulin Rouge. And then some. > [@](#): > > You’re the son of the “Cuban Superman,” aren’t you? Admit it. 😉 Alright by you if I plead The Fifth on this one? Other than that I will admit that the man was quite the character when it came to the ladies. And although the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, I wouldn’t be worthy to tie his shoelaces – in that sense – if he were still alive today. But I am more than content with my ways as opposed to his. And that’s way more info than I should have given anyway. 😉 > [@](#): > > When you say that, are you thinking of Venezuela or Colombia? Not in necessity. Take a look at Latin America as a whole and tell me where “American-style democracy” has had any measurable success. You know what’s ironic though? That perhaps the best example to follow in all of LA is currently Chile. But it sucks how they got there if you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/34 "2007-04-06T01:34:35Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] So in other words, Spain cozying up to dictators is just business? Should I now expect to never again see you complaining if the United States ever does something similar? We cozy up to the Saudis because we need all that delicious light sweet crude. Spain cozies up to Castro because they want the trade opportunities. And it’s all good, nations should do what is best for their economy with no concern for the human rights records of countries they prop up? Just wanna get this straight. Human rights in other countries…is no concern and should be no concern for any people or governments outside those countries? [/QUOTE] Although it may be hard for you to phantom, Spanish-Cuban ties go way beyond politics. In fact, they are blood-ties, as the fact that two opposite-wing dictators such as Franco and Castro, not only kept some sort of rapport between the two, but actually expressed muted admiration towards each other. Furthermore, Castro’s bloodline can be traced to the Spanish province of Galicia…Franco’s birthplace. Now, once Castro took over Cuba, one of the first phone-calls he got was from Franco, demanding that any and all Spanish denizens – and their offspring – be allowed to leave Cuba if they so wished. Castro was only too accomodating, for beyond Airflot, Iberia was the only other commercial air-line allowed into Cuban territory. And they’ve never stopped flying there to this day. OTOH, Franco’s Spain was ostracized for a while by the international community after WW-II – you know, fascist dictator and all that. But the minute he allowed American military bases in Spain, that all became hindsight. After all, he might’ve been a murderous dictator (and he certainly was) but he was also an anti-communist, thus it was all too easy a decision to forego all his crimes. Besides, the RCC held him as one of their primary (if not THE foremost, as shown by their granting him the super-extraordinary “under pallium” entrance to mass. If I am not mistaken ( **Tom**?) the only lay person in at least the past century to be granted such honor) standard-bearers, what other recognition of “goodness” was needed? Anyway, I realize I’ve gone waaay off topic here. But my point being that your query, while having some merit, needs to be placed in proper perspective. For while Spain is not a major player in the international arena, it still has ties that bind from its former Empire. Case in point, over 500 million people that not only speak the language but have, in a positive or negative way, been influenced by our culture. * * * As for a direct answer to your query, I felt the necessary (lacking) background was needed. But in short, no. And what Spain has done with Cuba does NOT mean that economic interests are the sole reason. Human Rights are HUGE in Jose Luis’ agenda. Make no mistake about that. Just wait and see. Zapatero’s ambitions for our nation go quite beyond the monetary. Witness the confrontation with the almighty Spanish Catholic Church over gay marriage. Nothing to gain – politically – lots to lose – politically as well – but that didn’t stop him. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/35 "2007-04-06T02:14:15Z")
Pardon the lack of cites, perhaps this is somewhat of a remedy: [Concordat with Franco](http://www.todayinhistory.de/index.php?what=thmanu&manu_id=1562&tag=27&monat=8&year=2002&dayisset=1&lang=en) [Pact of Madrid](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Madrid) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/36 "2007-04-06T02:16:39Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Although it may be hard for you to phantom, Spanish-Cuban ties go way beyond politics. In fact, they are blood-ties, as the fact that two opposite-wing dictators such as Franco and Castro, not only kept some sort of rapport between the two, but actually expressed muted admiration towards each other. Furthermore, Castro’s bloodline can be traced to the Spanish province of Galicia…Franco’s birthplace. [/QUOTE] Not hard to understand. The Americans and the Brits were enemies from 1776 to 1815, but we’ve enjoyed a “special relationship” ever since – even though it took a lot longer than that for the Brits to grow out of their distaste for our political system. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/37 "2007-04-06T02:45:28Z")
1815?? That’s a bit early. You need to study up on your history: > [@](#): > > [Venezuela Boundary Dispute](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/gp/17463.htm) > > The Venezuelan Boundary Dispute officially began in 1841, when the Venezuelan Government protested alleged British encroachment on Venezuelan territory…When gold was discovered in the disputed territory, Great Britain sought to further extend its reach, claiming an additional 33,000 square miles west of the Schomburgk Line, an area where gold had been discovered. In 1876 Venezuela protested, broke diplomatic relations with Great Britain, and appealed to the United States for assistance, citing the Monroe Doctrine as justification for U.S. involvement. For the next 19 years Venezuela repeatedly petitioned for U.S. assistance, calling on its neighbor to the north to intervene by either sponsoring arbitration or intervening with force. The United States responded by expressing concern, but did little to facilitate a resolution. > In 1895, invoking the Monroe Doctrine, newly appointed U.S. Secretary of State Richard Olney sent a strongly-worded note to British Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury, demanding that the British submit the boundary dispute to arbitration. Salisbury response was that the Monroe Doctrine had no validity as international law. The United States found that response unacceptable and in December 1895, President Grover Cleveland asked Congress for authorization to appoint a boundary commission, proposing that the commission’s findings be enforced “by every means.” Congress passed the measure unanimously and talk of war with Great Britain began to circulate in the U.S. press. The “special relationship” began with Woodrow Wilson and his Anglophile British ambassador, [Walter Page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Hines_Page). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/38 "2007-04-06T02:54:45Z")
[QUOTE=pantom] 1815?? That’s a bit early. You need to study up on your history: The “special relationship” began with Woodrow Wilson and his Anglophile British ambassador, [Walter Page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Hines_Page). [/QUOTE] Well, I got that from [_The Birth of the Modern,_](http://www.amazon.com/Birth-Modern-World-Society-1815-1830/dp/0060922826/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1742453-3035933?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175827882&sr=8-1) by Paul Johnson (a conservative British writer long expatriated to America). He holds our countries have had an unusually close, if occasionally strained, relationship ever since the Treaty of Ghent settled the question of Canada (i.e., that the U.S. would accept its permanent existence, as opposed to regarding it, as the Americans had up to then, as a bit of unfinished business from the Revolution, to be taken over whenever the U.S. grew strong enough). ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/39 "2007-04-06T02:59:55Z")
No surprise that a conservative British writer would say that. But his opinion bears only a peripheral relationship to historical reality, given that war with the UK was being contemplated in 1895, a mere 80 years after that treaty. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/40 "2007-04-06T13:08:26Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] If you don’t mind my saying so, I think you’re actually agreeing with what **BG** said, for Batista’s Cuba was as close as we’ve come in Latin America to having “a USA style system.” Problem lies in the endemic corruption we\* have at all levels – same as during Batista’s time, where you had a minority ruling elite in concordance with any number of American Companies raking in all the dough. I remember that Havana was dubbed the “Paris of the Antilles” back then as it was basically the playground of the rich and famous…you know, gambling, women, drugs, booze, etc. In fact, my father loved going there to party…and where he met my Mom, yet another Spanish immigrant in Cuba. [/QUOTE] We are getting lost in some of the history and semantics here. Batista’s system, the one the revolution overthrew lasted from 1952 to 1958. That was a period of non-democratic rule, which nevertheless included free press and multiple political parties. From 1940 to 1952 Cuba enjoyed a multiparty democracy with free eleccions, some may call those eleccions corrupt, but given what recent scrutiny of eleccions in the US has shown I think we can call them free and fair. That’s what I meant when I talk about a pre-Batista style democracy, the 1940-1952 period. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740.md?page=3)