# Spanish Minister offers a hearty Fuck You to Cuban political prisoners. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2007, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740 "2007-04-04T17:50:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/41 "2007-04-06T13:12:04Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] As for a direct answer to your query, I felt the necessary (lacking) background was needed. But in short, no. And what Spain has done with Cuba does NOT mean that economic interests are the sole reason. Human Rights are HUGE in Jose Luis’ agenda. Make no mistake about that. Cheers. [/QUOTE] The other huge item in Spain’s agenda is Cuba’s outstanding debt to Spain, well over 1 billion dollars last time I saw ny numbers. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/42 "2007-04-07T00:31:36Z")
[QUOTE=lalenin] We are getting lost in some of the history and semantics here. Batista’s system, the one the revolution overthrew lasted from 1952 to 1958. That was a period of non-democratic rule, which nevertheless included free press and multiple political parties. From 1940 to 1952 Cuba enjoyed a multiparty democracy with free eleccions, some may call those eleccions corrupt, but given what recent scrutiny of eleccions in the US has shown I think we can call them free and fair. That’s what I meant when I talk about a pre-Batista style democracy, the 1940-1952 period. [/QUOTE] Yeah, well, that’s supposedly what we have in the DR right now. But it’s all rather fictional. You either “agree” with the US-style democracy, or, if you’re lucky, name your price, get it, and quit whining. Otherwise you go the way of Orlando Martinez (Google him if you don’t know what I am talking about). And there are no semantics involved in what **BG** or myself said: rather doubtful (in fact, not doubtful at all) that he Republicans or the mostly right-wing Cuban exiles would “allow” anything akin to the Canadian, EU, Scandinavian social-democratic systems with its integrated “broad social net.” Which is exactly what is much needed in these Third World Nations if any sort of semi-equality is ever going to be achieved. Lastly, allow me to mention the last action of the Spanish Government that left me agape: I already have two different private insurances, one local and one international, thus I am obviously not in need, nor a target of the action. But get this, just by virtue of being born in Madrid and registered as a citizen there, just this week I got a letter AND a health insurance card that covers _any and all_ illnesses I might incur in, simply by virtue of traveling to Madrid! And here’s the kicker, the current President of the Comunidad Madrileña is Esperanza Aguirre, a well-known member of the PP (Aznar’s toy) but her incredibly thoughtful initiative was approved by the PSOE. Now, these are the sort of things that give me hope for a better world – even if I don’t live to see it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/43 "2007-04-07T05:17:55Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Besides, the RCC held him as one of their primary (if not THE foremost, as shown by their granting him the super-extraordinary “under pallium” entrance to mass. If I am not mistaken ( **Tom**?) the only lay person in at least the past century to be granted such honor) standard-bearers, what other recognition of “goodness” was needed? [/QUOTE] I’m not even sure that Franco was “granted” the pallium, (although he may well have been), based only on my awareness that Franco unilaterally demanded a few honors of the Spanish clergy (and was also granted a few honors by clergy more than willing to help him after his “defense” of the church from the communists).\* The pallium is not merely a sign of honor but a particular badge of office that newly minted archbishops must “request” of the pope before they can carry out their duties as metropolitans of their provinces (even though they would not have been elevated to the archbishopric without the full approval of the pope, to begin with). It is all a bit arcane to me. I have heard of Franco getting odd honors from the church and this could be one of them–certainly I have never heard of anyone not a bishop receiving a palliium, before. \*(Without in any way approving of Franco or the church’s horrible entanglement with him, it should be noted that priests were primary targets for assassination by the government under the regime that was overthrown just before the Civil War and that during the Civil War, the Reds continued that happy practice, extending it to nuns, teachers, and prominent laymen. I do not think that that justified many of Franco’s actions or the support of his heinous actions by the church, but as a human reaction by members of the clergy and hierarchy, it is pretty understandable.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/44 "2007-04-07T19:11:35Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] And there are no semantics involved in what **BG** or myself said: rather doubtful (in fact, not doubtful at all) that he Republicans or the mostly right-wing Cuban exiles would “allow” anything akin to the Canadian, EU, Scandinavian social-democratic systems with its integrated “broad social net.” Which is exactly what is much needed in these Third World Nations if any sort of semi-equality is ever going to be achieved. [/QUOTE] The interesting thing is that a democratized Cuba has the potential to become considerably more dem-sosh than anything you’ll find in Europe. From the [Encarta:](http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569844_8/Cuba.html) > [@](#): > > C Legislature > > The 1976 constitution instituted a concept known as the People’s Power construct, a structure designed to allow Cuban citizens greater participation in government policy-making decisions. The People’s Power consists of assemblies that administer government and pass laws. These assemblies exist at municipal, provincial, and national levels. Delegates are nominated and elected first at the municipal level. They need not be members of the PCC. However, the party must approve all candidates, and individuals may not run on a political platform. Instead, voters select their delegate from brief biographies and from personal acquaintance with the person. The 169 municipal assemblies allocate funds for maintenance of municipal facilities and hear cases involving household disputes and petty crime. Smaller communities with populations of 30,000 or more elect delegates to people’s councils. Members of the municipal assemblies and the people’s councils elect representatives to their provincial assemblies from their membership. > > Each of Cuba’s 14 provinces has its own assembly. Provincial assemblies oversee transportation and communication systems throughout the island and recommend legislation regarding interstate crime and allocations of resources for development. From their own membership, provincial delegates nominate and elect representatives to the 601-member National Assembly of People’s Power. In 1992 the public approved a referendum calling for assembly members to be elected directly by the people. Only candidates belonging to the PCC are allowed to run. > > The National Assembly votes on legislation presented by the PCC, and every four years it elects the president of the country. It occasionally debates the wisdom of legislation, but it has never failed to approve the central government’s proposals. When the National Assembly is in recess, which is most of the year, the Council of State has legislative powers. > > Legislation can originate in various governmental branches. The president may decree laws that are in effect until they are accepted or rejected by the National Assembly. The Politburo and Central Committee can write legislation that is submitted to the National Assembly. And the courts can suggest legal reforms and interpretations to be enacted by the assembly. > > D Mass Organizations > > The Cuban political structure depends upon popular organizations that are not officially controlled by the PCC but are closely linked to it. Every citizen may belong to several of these organizations, which correspond to major social and economic sectors. For example, the Federation of Cuban Women seeks the membership of all eligible women over the age of 16 and deals with issues in the areas of health, child care, family relations, education, and loyalty to the revolution. Farmers may join the National Association of Small Farmers (ANAP), which introduces agricultural technology to farmers. It also tries to resolve problems relating to transporting produce to markets from cooperatives and private farms that are not a part of the state-run system. > > Workers’ issues are represented to the government by the Confederation of Cuban Laborers (CTC), and the CTC conveys government decisions to workers. It oversees labor disputes between management and workers, as the right to strike was rescinded in the 1960s. The CTC works on behalf of the government by trying to maintain high levels of production. The Young Communist League indoctrinates Cuban youth with the ideals of Communism. The Committees for the Defense of the Revolution are neighborhood groups that call meetings to review the meaning of Fidel Castro’s speeches, provide neighborhood watch groups against crime, inform the neighborhood of civil and political activities, and report suspicious political behavior by local residents. > > Within all of these groups, people can express their opinions and criticisms, although their views must follow revolutionary principles. Opinions are transmitted to central authorities who consider them as they make administrative decisions. One important legislative document brought before the public before its formal passage was the Family Code of 1975, which described the role of each member of a family. Massive public debate occurred and opinions were polled before the code became law. The numerous mass organizations also function as an official means of communication between the government and the people as they convey public policies to the citizenry. This system would be radically more grass-roots democratic than anything we’ve got in the U.S., **if** the Communist Party were not in absolute control of all key decisionmaking at every step at every level. Now imaging taking the Communist Party out of the equation. And imagine the people don’t immediately vote to privatize the whole economy – but, instead, let it remain under control of genuinely **democratized** state bodies and mass organizations. That’s what the Revolution was ideally supposed to be about in the first place. I just hope the system – at least, those salvageable elements described above — outlives Castro and the CCP. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/45 "2007-04-07T23:20:47Z")
Thank you kindly, **Tom** , appreciate your input. I take it from what you wrote that I was indeed right – in the sense that the pallium bit is an honor normally reserved for the clergy itself. Growing-up in Franco’s Spain as I did, I distinctly remember watching live transmissions of a few masses (especially the one for El Dia De Los Caidos, or The Day of The Fallen, from the majestic [Valley of the Fallen](http://www.cypresscollege.edu/~sa/spain/valley.jpg), built entirely by POWs and whomever else he decided to jail and not kill) where he in fact went in under pallium. OTOH, yes, you’re right, the Rojos did indeed launch a virulent campaign agaist the clergy. Me, I don’t really take sides on our civil war as I had members of my family fighting on either side – nothing untypical of that war btw. Just wish it never would have happened. Never mind the 40 years of dictatorship – and my dad’s unrepentant adoration of the man. * * * **BG** , Thanks for that cite. It is indeed a great system if they could take the CP out of the equation – which I think was the lady I was telling you about had in mind. She also remarked that people ought not mistake the unity of the Cuban people as a whole – the the embargo, damaging at it was and is, made them even stronger in their resolve to reject an outright Capitalist system. What I can’t tell you is how much it was true and how much was idealism on her part. I do hope for the best for them – and I don’t think naked capitalism is it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/46 "2007-04-07T23:27:08Z")
I don’t know about the pallium thing, but Franco [did appropriate some of the traditional ceremonial prerogatives of a Spanish king:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco#After_the_war) > [@](#): > > In 1947, Franco proclaimed Spain a monarchy, but did not designate a monarch. This gesture was largely done to appease monarchist factions within the Movimiento. Although a self-proclaimed monarchist himself, Franco had no particular desire for a king, and as such, he left the throne vacant, with himself as de facto regent. He wore the uniform of a Captain General (a rank traditionally reserved for the King) and resided in the El Pardo Palace (not to be confused with the El Prado). In addition, he appropriated the kingly privilege of walking beneath a canopy, and his portrait appeared on most Spanish coins. Indeed, although his formal titles were Jefe del Estado (Chief of State), and Generalísimo de los Ejércitos Españoles (Generalísimo of the Spanish Armed Forces), he had originally intended any government that succeeded him to be much more authoritarian than the previous monarchy. This is indicated in his use of “by the grace of God” in his official title, a phrase often used by monarchs. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/47 "2007-04-07T23:30:21Z")
Here we go: [Franco under pallium](http://www.uco.es/~ca1lamag/blog/franco-palio.jpg). Happy union between the RCC and a fascist dictator – notice the fascists salutes all around. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/48 "2007-04-07T23:41:09Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Here we go: [Franco under pallium](http://www.uco.es/~ca1lamag/blog/franco-palio.jpg). Happy union between the RCC and a fascist dictator – notice the fascists salutes all around. [/QUOTE] No, he’s under a **canopy** – hitherto a royal prerogative. A [pallium](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallium) is a strip of cloth a bishop wears draped around his neck. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/49 "2007-04-08T00:03:25Z")
BG, if I’ve learned anything in my already protracted life, is that seldom things are as black or white as many would have it. By that I mean, I grew up under Franco, and there probably wasn’t a safer – or more prudish – country in the western world to live in. Crime was virtually unheard of…just as rare as seeing a naked boob anywhere; getting a hold of a Playboy, through some kids we knew that lived in Torrejon de Ardoz (The Spanish/American Air base) was practically a heroic feat. Censorship of movies was so ridiculous that sometimes (Hollywood stuff) flicks made no sense at all, i.e. The Graduate. Having said that, as a kid, I didn’t give a hoot about politics – for me it was all about sports and just plain having fun. So, in that sense, it was a great country to grow-up in. Parents had nary a worry about drugs, porn, crime, etc. BUT, and there’s always a but, you best not DARE say anything anti-government, because odds were at least 50/50 that if you were overheard, _someone_ would turn you in. And who the hell knew if you were ever going to get out. As per usual, the biggest problem areas were the large universities, who had a steady share of riots/protests. Lots of broken heads and kids off to jail. Personal anecdote: my only uncle from my Mom’s side, all of seventeen when the war broke-out, was a loyal member of the Youth Falangists, thus he was obviously recruited to fight for the Nacionalist as soon as hostilities began. Smart kid that he was, he had taught himself morse-code as a hobby, thus he was sent to a communications outpost under a couple of other officers. Turns out one night, he’s alone in the outpost and a message comes in. Being a kid and quite curious, he proceeded to interpret the message prior to calling his superiors. In walks one of them, sees him doing this and he is immediately jailed, charged as an enemy-spy and sentenced to death by firing squad. Only thing that kept him alive was the fact that my Grandmother, who widowed very young, had remarried a politician of some clout on the right. Long story short. spent the better part of his youth in jail – 14 years – upon release, migrated to Canada where he earned a PHD in history and went-on to become a uni professor. But of course, Spain was always in his heart…and armed with his now Canadian passport, he made regular trips to Spain, normally to small towns in Asturias were he was originally from. Once there, he’d go to the local tavern, get loaded on apple-cider, and raise all sorts of hell against the regime. Result: he was deported at least five times before being permanently black-listed from entering Spain. Oh, and I’ll never forget the arguments from hell him and my Dad used to engage in…had to be broken apart by others (myself included) more than once. Both dead long ago. But the memories remain vivid. And they are not in black and white. Hope that made some sense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/50 "2007-04-08T00:11:32Z")
Of course, Franco was never a fascist the way Mussolini and Hitler were. Fascism is a 20th Century phenomenon, consciously rooted in the past, but simultaneously forward-looking and futuristic on a hubristic scale. It was also in some respects a populist, anti-elitist movement with some socialistic ideology and rhetoric. Franco was more of a reactionary authoritarian – he didn’t want a glorious new Spanish Empire, he just wanted Spain to remain forever as it had been before 20th Century, with the gentry and RCC in power and the peasants knowing their place. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/51 "2007-04-08T00:17:57Z")
> [@BG](#): > > …he didn’t want a glorious new Spanish Empire, he just wanted Spain to remain forever as it had been before 20th Century, with the gentry and RCC in power and the peasants knowing their place. Yep. Pretty much spot-on. That’s how I’d encapsulate that time. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/52 "2007-04-08T00:30:59Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, he’s under a **canopy** – hitherto a royal prerogative. A [pallium](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallium) is a strip of cloth a bishop wears draped around his neck. [/QUOTE] Well, maybe **Tom** can straighten us out on this. Because ‘palio’ is the word used in Spanish for what you call a ‘canopy.’ In fact, if you Google “[Francisco Franco bajo Palio](http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&q=Francisco%20Franco%20bajo%20palio&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi)” you get a ton of images like the one I posted. For instance, right-click and look at the properties of that pic: franco- **palio**.jpg. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/53 "2007-04-08T00:37:27Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Well, maybe **Tom** can straighten us out on this. Because ‘palio’ is the word used in Spanish for what you call a ‘canopy.’ In fact, if you Google “[Francisco Franco bajo Palio](http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&q=Francisco%20Franco%20bajo%20palio&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi)” you get a ton of images like the one I posted. For instance, right-click and look at the properties of that pic: franco- **palio**.jpg. [/QUOTE] The point is, he didn’t have to get the pope’s permission to appear under a canopy. He would have, to wear a pallium – only the pope can hand them out, and only to bishops. The RCC supported Franco, but not enough to make him some sort of honorary lay bishop. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/54 "2007-04-08T00:48:45Z")
From the [Real Diccionario de La Lengua Española](http://significados.net/palio.html): 1. m. Especie de dosel colocado sobre cuatro o más varas largas, bajo el cual se lleva procesionalmente el Santísimo Sacramento, o una imagen. Lo usan también los jefes de Estado, el Papa y algunos prelados. 2. m. Cosa que forma una manera de dosel o cubre como él. 3. m. Prenda principal, exterior, del traje griego, a manera de manto, usada comúnmente sobre la túnica. 4. m. Capa o balandrán. 5. m. Insignia pontifical que da el Papa a los arzobispos y a algunos obispos, la cual es como una faja blanca con cruces negras, que pende de los hombros sobre el pecho. 6. m. Paño de seda o tela preciosa, que se ofrecía como premio al vencedor en determinados juegos de carrera. 7. m. Zool. Manto de los moluscos, de los braquiópodos y de otros grupos de animales. * * * Definitions one and five apply to what I’m saying. Sorry, too tired to translate ATM. Off to bed as I’m waking-up at 2:30 AM to watch F-1 racing from Sepang. Night. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/55 "2007-04-08T01:13:52Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Here we go: [Franco under pallium](http://www.uco.es/~ca1lamag/blog/franco-palio.jpg). [/QUOTE] We may have a problem of language and cognates, here. My (Western hemisphere-oriented) Spanish-English dictionary translates _palio_ both as pallium and as canopy. However, as **BrainGlutton** notes, (in English) pallium applies only to a thin, circular stole-like vestment with eight small attached crosses worn by archbishops. As further noted by **BrainGlutton** , there is a special use for canopies when used in processions. A canopy is properly used over only the Blessed Sacrament in solemn processions, but may, for special occasions, be used for bishops, legates, and “princes of the blood royal.” (Could Franco have claimed it for himself as the _effective_ regent even though that is outside the rules?) At any rate, I have no idea whether the Spanish bishops conveyed the honor (willingly or under duress) or whether Franco appropriated it to himself. ---
**Author:** ![Gentle\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gentle\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gentle_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/56 "2007-04-08T01:35:02Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] And so the fuck what? Cuba is a totalitarian dictatorship, and you call providing support to people resisting the dictatorship “dirty money”? What kind of an idiot are you, anyway? [/QUOTE] I call it a waste of money ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/57 "2007-04-08T01:38:45Z")
**tomndebb** : def 5 from **Red Fury** applies to your first paragraph, def 1 to your second paragraph. FYI. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/58 "2007-04-08T01:43:11Z")
[QUOTE=pantom] **tomndebb** : def 5 from **Red Fury** applies to your first paragraph, def 1 to your second paragraph. FYI. [/QUOTE] True, but that would probably have been missed by all the Dutch-speaking Dopers. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/59 "2007-04-08T06:16:38Z")
As I mentioned in this [other thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8441328&postcount=222) (where you just might notice I threw “polite” out the window) all I id was toss and turn in bed for a few hours; little over an hour till race-time so I suppose its not all all bad – other than packing for my trip to Spain had no big plans for 2-morrow. Anyway, tossing and turning I gave some thought to this this thread – no wonder the bed felt crowded – and I came up with the conclusion that, besides my memories/prejudices, **Tom** and **BG** are closer to the facts than I am, “language and cognates” aside. But not completely. Allow me to explain, as **pantom** was kind enough to explain, both you, **Tom** and **BG** , are right going by the strict official Royal Spanish Dictionary definition ONE (BTW,along with its Mexican and Argentinian branches, the definitive Spanish language authorities), for AFAIK, Franco never wore the “faja blanca con cruces negras, que pende de los hombros sobre el pecho” (def 5) or as Tom translates it, “a thin, circular stole-like vestment with eight small attached crosses worn by archbishops.” OTOH, I still have somewhat of a quibble on two fronts: **Tom** , in my eight or nine years of Jesuit schooling (never ming uni, because although it was a Jesuit school, I had nothing to do with religious teachings) if I am not mistaken, men had to have their heads uncovered (as opposed to women and veils) and yet Franco was allowed-in with definition one (canopy) without a murmur. Secondly, from an earlier cite of mine, [Concordat with Franco](http://www.todayinhistory.de/index.php?what=thmanu&manu_id=1562&tag=27&monat=8&year=2002&dayisset=1&lang=en), you’ll note the following: > [@](#): > > \*\*The Church and state made large concessions to each other in the concordat of 1953. The Church received exceptional privileges from the highly religious Franco. The Catholic religion was declared the only religion of the Spanish nation. The Church was given much broader influence in the areas of education, schools and curriculums. Civil marriages were made considerably more difficult, priests and members of the clergy became exempt from normal criminal prosecution. > > In return, the dictator was granted the right to appoint bishops, a privilege traditionally reserved for the Spanish monarchy. Franco hoped to ensure the bishops were loyal to the state by appointing candidates who were agreeable to him. He thus hoped to prevent opposition or arousing sympathies with the opposition (such as with the autonomy movements in Basque region or Catalonia). > > In contrast to its usual apolitical course, Rome agreed to these concessions as Pius XII saw himself in agreement with Franco’s religious politics. For the dictator, the concordat represented justification on both a domestic and foreign scale. It was as if the Catholic Church was giving its seal of approval to the Spanish government. It was a decisive step in ending the international isolation of the Franco regime.\*\* – my highlights. Rather exceptional the mutual concesions, are they not not? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2007, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740/60 "2007-04-08T06:18:24Z")
PS-Thanks in an oblique way, guys. Only 10 minutes till race coverage starts. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-minister-offers-a-hearty-fuck-you-to-cuban-political-prisoners/398740.md?page=4)