# Spanish world cup crowd - Confederate flag? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352 "2006-06-19T20:55:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Don\_Logan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Don\_Logan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Logan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/41 "2006-06-21T13:08:20Z")
I agree with **flodnak** - the goal of having teams from all parts of the world in the World Cup is a nice idea, but Europe gets hosed. If their were no regional minimums, and teams were selected based on quality, I would say at minimum 20 of the World Cup teams would be from Europe. Like they say, the World Cup is just the Euros with Brasil and Argentina. Out of all the non European squads, only these two would be locks to be in the tournament this year. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/42 "2006-06-21T16:59:18Z")
Nava– Loquillos y Trogloditas is still in business? Hah, I love them-- a friend from Madrid introduced me to them in 1989 or so (Ritmo del Garage). How funny. Them and Los Nikis. I wandered through a “western/cowboy days” festival in a small town on the Belgian coast while on tour on bike-- there was a lot of Confederate battle flag going on, with little connotation intended. Then I saw a nice wooden boat harbored in Oostende with, I swear to God, a Confederate flag waving above a Hoegaarden brewery flag. Analyze that one. I think people in Europe understand the meanings of the flag to Americans about as well as your average American punk would understand the vagaries of the DDR/ GDR coldwar insignia or any WWII stuff without a swastika (while we were hanging around Vienna an American-Serb friend, for example, almost spat out her drink the first time that we saw the colors and patterns the Croats were starting to use in 1991 or so (we ran into a protest of some sort), and started ranting about the Ustasha, et cetera-- lots of connotations I would never have known of). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/43 "2006-06-21T17:23:05Z")
[QUOTE=capybara] Nava– Loquillos y Trogloditas is still in business? Hah, I love them-- a friend from Madrid introduced me to them in 1989 or so (Ritmo del Garage). How funny. Them and Los Nikis. [/QUOTE] Oh, absolutely! They put a record out about every two years, the list is in the webpage I linked. Last January these friends of my bro and SIL insisted in inviting several friends over on one of the first days of January. It was a weird date to be getting together, but they went. Part of the idea (and a part the guests hadn’t been told about) was going to the concert Loquillo gives every year for his birthday - he spends Christmas over in Irún, with the wife’s family 😃 Wish I’d been there! I’m not really a “fan” of anybody, but I’ve had him in my A-list since I was in High School. Hearing “Cadillac Solitario” in the oldies radio was one of my “ohmygodI’mOLD” shocks! ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/44 "2006-06-21T18:18:42Z")
(Now I have to dig out boxes of old tapes and find that album. . . getting way off topic. . ) On topic-- yes, I think it’s a Euro-Rockabilly thing, and not a neo-fascist thing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/45 "2006-06-21T18:52:11Z")
[QUOTE=Antonius Block] Well, every year a bunch of people in southern Spain do [dress up](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Week_procession) like [this](http://www.skunk.co.uk/images/lifestyle/art/photography/bcurtis/Semana-Santa.jpg), so maybe the racist football fans just got confused… [/QUOTE] My mom has a vintage (circa WWII) poster advertising Semana Santa festivities in the front hall of her house. Partly beacuse she’s Catholic, partly because my dad is a huge Spain-ophile, but mostly just to fuck with the heads of visitors. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/46 "2006-06-21T19:32:53Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Yeah, I saw this the other day too, but I doubt **duality72** ’s WAG. I’ve seen a dozen or more reports on racism and the World Cup, and have not yet seen a rebel flag in any of them. Don’t really know what to make of it without some a better cite from **duality72**. [/QUOTE] Wasn’t a WAG, but not sure what I can do for a cite. It’s well known that certain racist supporter’s clubs in Europe have taken to using Confederate symbols, using the fact that it’s relatively less known by the European public to sneak under the radar, as it were. [Here’s](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85464) a discussion on BigSoccer, and [another one](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247593&highlight=confederate), [another](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140815&highlight=confederate), and [there](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372200&highlight=confederate+flag) are [recent](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372236&highlight=confederate) ones on the OP’s sighting (sorry for the link heaviness, but it’s not like any individual one is authoritative). Amid the discussion and usual noise, I think you’ll agree most acknowledge the racism angle as the most likely, although there’s also the possibility of general “rebel” symbol, Euro-rockabilly, or it being attached to a local north/south rivalry. I also saw it in a recent TV segment on racism in football. And despite what Nava thinks, you’ll see it’s associated with racism in Spain several times. I would be about 95% certain the flag in the OP’s context was a racist statement to counter FIFA’s emphasis of removing racism from football this World Cup. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/47 "2006-06-21T20:12:41Z")
[QUOTE=duality72] It’s well known that certain racist supporter’s clubs in Europe have taken to using Confederate symbols, using the fact that it’s relatively less known by the European public to sneak under the radar, as it were. [Here’s](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85464) a discussion on BigSoccer, and [another one](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247593&highlight=confederate), [another](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140815&highlight=confederate), and [there](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372200&highlight=confederate+flag) are [recent](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372236&highlight=confederate) ones on the OP’s sighting (sorry for the link heaviness, but it’s not like any individual one is authoritative). [/QUOTE] Your linked message board discussions don’t support your assertions. I see several posters there saying that the Confederate flag in Europe doesn’t necessarily carry the baggage it does here, and often connotes a generalized rebelliousness or rowdiness (or in Italy, a North-South rivalry). Meanwhile it seems to be mostly Americans who are screaming “racism”! Why not accept **Nava** ’s explanation, coming (as it does) from someone closer to the situation? ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/48 "2006-06-21T20:25:34Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Wow. The Capirote outfit is one of the most powerfully intimidating designs I’ve ever seen. Even if there were never such thing as a KKK those guys would still look completely evil. [/QUOTE] As **Nava** pointed out, they’re **not** actually intimidating in real life, and the anonymity of the hoods is intended not to frighten, but to promote _private_ rather than _public_ piety. A previous thread on the subject is [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=367315). That said, it’s not hard to find photos on the Web that _do_ seem to play up the scary aspect, even if unintentionally. The folds in the robe of the central figure in [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Capuchones.jpg) photo make him look a little like [Cthulhu](http://pantransit.reptiles.org/images/1996-07-28/Cthulhu.png)… ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/49 "2006-06-21T20:32:23Z")
[QUOTE=duality72] It’s well known that certain racist supporter’s clubs in Europe have taken to using Confederate symbols, using the fact that it’s relatively less known by the European public to sneak under the radar, as it were. [/QUOTE] Well known by whom??? If it is so well known why can’t we find it anywhere on the 'net? Furthermore, why would a hate organization try to “sneak under the radar,” aren’t they trying to get their word out, so to speak? I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that I would like to see something substantive to back up your position. [QUOTE=duality72] [Here’s](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85464) a discussion on BigSoccer, and [another one](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247593&highlight=confederate), [another](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140815&highlight=confederate), and [there](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372200&highlight=confederate+flag) are [recent](http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372236&highlight=confederate) [/QUOTE] These are all links to another message board with about the same speculation as this one has generated, not exactly what I would call authorative. [QUOTE=duality72] And despite what Nava thinks, you’ll see it’s associated with racism in Spain several times. I would be about 95% certain the flag in the OP’s context was a racist statement to counter FIFA’s emphasis of removing racism from football this World Cup. [/QUOTE] See it where, in the posts on that other message board? Surely there is something better out there to prove your point. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/50 "2006-06-21T20:57:03Z")
FWIW, [here’s](http://orders.mkn.co.uk/footballshirt/flag/) an English “Football Flag” website that sells a couple Confederate Flags, along with a Marijuana Flag, Jolly Roger Flag and Che Guevara Flag, etc. One of the Confederate Flags has a James Dean likeness at its center, heh. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/51 "2006-06-21T21:04:52Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Well known by whom??? If it is so well known why can’t we find it anywhere on the 'net? Furthermore, why would a hate organization try to “sneak under the radar,” aren’t they trying to get their word out, so to speak? I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that I would like to see something substantive to back up your position. [/QUOTE] I’m not in a position to back up any of the arguments, but ‘sneaking under the radar’, finding ways to bring ambiguous symbolism into the public arena, is common currency. We’re not talking about ‘hate groups’, but about much looser political affiliation and alliance. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/52 "2006-06-21T21:40:19Z")
Hmmm… I have to say, for Euro-racists there are usually plenty of other symbols to wave about that have much stronger emotional loadings or are more ‘under the radar’ than a flag which is generally seen as representing in no particular order: Bourbon Fried Chicken Inbreeding Country Music Hot-rods & Harleys Juke-boxes Conviviality Scary cops in sunglasses who say “y’all” a lot Let’s face it, from this side of the Atlantic (the land of Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, Mosley, Quisling, et al) the US looks like a pretty piss-poor model for the aspiring skinhead. As far as the Italian fascist thing, you may be thinking of [Lazio](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4158591.stm), who certainly do have a repution and a half for that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/53 "2006-06-21T22:25:05Z")
There isn’t exactly a Racist Fans Association putting out press releases, people. Many knowledgeable soccer fans from around the world say it is used for racist purposes by some groups, though you can’t be sure what any one person is using it for. [This fan group](http://www.geocities.com/lkslodzfans/index2.htm) has confederate symbology on their front page and [inside](http://www.geocities.com/lkslodzfans/england/ukabcfans.htm) is this gem: > [@](#): > > We hate Widzew Lodz and we call them “Zydzew” (means “Jews”), … Maybe someone can search in Spanish, Italian, or Polish to find better examples. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Logan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Don\_Logan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Logan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/54 "2006-06-21T23:47:51Z")
The James Dean makes sense if they are using the flag as a “rebel” flag (saying hey! we are rebels), and not as a conferderate flag. Quite clever actually. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/55 "2006-06-22T02:14:05Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Yes there is. Israel competes in the European region. European? Strange. Why? Wouldn’t Asian be much more logical? Neither Iraq, Syria, Jordan, nor Egypt–all very near to Israel–played in UEFA. Pretty cool that they were so close! BTW, I noticed on the Wikipedia link for UEFA qualifying that the only Israeli “home games” were at Tel Aviv. Why not other Israeli stadiums too? Tel Aviv is the cultural center for modern/secular Israel, but what’s wrong with shifting it around a little? France, Switzerland and the Faroe Islands all had multiple sites. > [@flodnak](#): > > It’s tempting for me to say that FIFA should just tell the teams that if they don’t want to play Israel, that’s fine, but not showing up is an automatic disqualification for them and three points for a win to Israel. This is probably why I am a preschool teacher and not a member of the board of an international sports federation Ah, that answers my question at the beginning of the post. I thought so. I would agree with your suggestion of a solution. Is there a petition or letter-writing campaign on the Web anywhere that anyone is aware of? I’m not having any luck Googling it. I don’t agree that spots should be decided only on merit. For one thing, the only objective way would be for every team to play teams from every other part of the world, which sounds mightily awful to organize. Think of the airfare! For another, UEFA already has championships and if Europeans want to call themselves world champions then they get to play against the world. But putting teams in a tougher federation because a bunch of bigots don’t want to play them is pansier than a dandelion covered in glitter, and that they would go to Europe is dubious. Why not put them in Africa, which borders Israel (at Egypt)? Or does Egypt not want to play Israel either? Fuck 'em, nobody gets a free pass. Or should, anyway. That’s asinine. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/56 "2006-06-22T06:50:00Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] BTW, I noticed on the Wikipedia link for UEFA qualifying that the only Israeli “home games” were at Tel Aviv. Why not other Israeli stadiums too? Tel Aviv is the cultural center for modern/secular Israel, but what’s wrong with shifting it around a little? France, Switzerland and the Faroe Islands all had multiple sites. [/QUOTE] (a) Security reasons. There’s been times when ‘home’ games haven’t been played in Israel at all. Securing one stadium for an international competition is quite hard enough. (b) Most countries don’t have wandering home matches. England only has had them while Wembley’s been out of action. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/57 "2006-06-22T09:33:58Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] But putting teams in a tougher federation because a bunch of bigots don’t want to play them is pansier than a dandelion covered in glitter, and that they would go to Europe is dubious. Why not put them in Africa, which borders Israel (at Egypt)? Or does Egypt not want to play Israel either? Fuck 'em, nobody gets a free pass. Or should, anyway. That’s asinine. [/QUOTE] Oddly enough, since FIFA is a federation of federations of football associations, not a branch of the UN, they tend to make their decisions according to what their members want or whatever the executives feel like doing. Why would a sporting association want to get involved in the middle-eastern leg-pissing contest? They have a hard enough time handling the quadrennial political circus of awarding the world cup hosting rights, and in general the idea of such a notoriously corrupt organisation taking the moral high ground on anything is pretty laughable. Besides, UEFA includes Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Khazakstan, so including Israel isn’t that much of a geographic stretch. From [the wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_national_football_team) Israel have played at various times in the African, Asian, South American 😕 and Oceania 😕😕 groups. Now they are playing in Europe, they only need North America for the full set. Incidentally, it’s quite possible the Israelis are quite happpy to avoid having to play Iran/Syria/Libya/Iraq/whoever on a regular basis - it would be a political crisis every single time. A quick google found plenty of unhappiness about the two-faced attitude FIFA have about racism directed at Jewish players and its criticism of Israeli actions, but not much clamouring to rejoin the Asian federation. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/58 "2006-06-23T02:46:12Z")
Good points all. Can’t say I’m ready to concede, but you’ve given me some food for thought. As has **Noone Special** who told me (in another thread methinks) that the sentiment in Israel is that it’s better to be on the tail of a lion than on the head of a jackal. I still think it’s immensely unfair, but I guess you’re right–Israel is definitely outnumbered by, well, anti-Israel, by a very, very large margin. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Logan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Don\_Logan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Logan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/59 "2006-06-23T13:21:25Z")
I think a year or two ago, it was news when a club team with an Isreali player was to play against a clube team with I think an Irani, and the Iran player said he would not go on the pitch against just one Isreali. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352/60 "2006-06-23T16:41:00Z")
Boo freakin’ hoo. Sucks for the Irani’s job prospects. I can’t think of any non-violent thing more despicable you can do at work than to refuse to do your job because you’re too fucking bigoted to interact with people in other companies that you are required by contract to interact with. Unfortunately, professional athletes are often too skilled to be fired for a reason like that. If I ran that club, and there were a contract-based way to reclaim the salary I’d paid that guy to stew in his own psychological problems on the bench, you’d better believe I’d do it. And if I could find a way to cut him, you’d better believe I would. And you’d better believe I’d feel the same way about a player who refused to play against a club with a black player, or a French player, or a Japanese player, or whatever else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanish-world-cup-crowd-confederate-flag/361352.md?page=4)