# Spanking Is NOT 'Child Abuse'? And the belt isn't necessarily abuse, either
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 21, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037 "2002-11-21T22:10:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/1 "2002-11-21T22:10:48Z")
[This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=145293), and I thought the topic deserved better than a hijack of that thread.
leander starts the ball rolling:
> [@](#):
>
> Joe\_Cool - Striking children with a belt (or other weapon) is against the law. Please don’t promote child abuse here.
Not true. And for the smug attitude displayed, I think it only appropriate to reply: Please don’t promote ignorance here.
Of course it’s true that striking a child with a belt, or other implement, _may_ constitute child abuse or assault, and may be against the law. But it is by no means certain.
In Virginia, for example, as in many other states, the right of a parent to inflict corporeal punishment is enshrined in the law. See _Campbell v. Commonwealth_, 405 S.E.2d 1 (Va. App. 1991). The general guidance is that no bright-line test exists - it is impossible (and profoundly ignorant, I might add) to claim that the use of a belt is illegal. Courts have been very deferential of punishments that amount to spankings, whther by hand or implement, and very suspicious of events that might tend to inflict permanant scars or endanger physical well-being.
So far as I can tell, no state has explicitly forbidden parental corporeal punishment.
With the legal business out of the way…
> [@](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \*
> > leander, it’s called discipline, (weather by belt or hand) not child abuse. Not spanking a child when necessary is child abuse. Those are the children that get their asses kicked in school.
>
> _Originally posted by Anahita_
> Slight hijack here, but CITE? Do you have kids of your own? Are you a licensed child psychologist? An experienced teacher? Any qualifications at all?
As a parent, and as a former child, perhaps I have at least minimal qualifications to respond.
I am absolutely convinced that the spankings I got as a child - which were infrequent, but which did, on several notable occasions, involve a belt - were ultimately beneficial to my upbringing.
Is it possible to raise a happy and well-adjusted child without any corporeal punishment at all? I imagine it is, but I don’t think it’s wise or necessary. So while I’m not sure I buy the hyperbole of saying “not spanking when needed is abuse,” but I’d certainly say that not providing some means of discipline when needed is a breach of the implicit duty a parent has towards a child.
- Rick
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### Author:  [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2002, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/2 "2002-11-21T22:17:42Z")
I am in complete and total agreement with the OP.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/3 "2002-11-21T22:23:02Z")
I also don’t know any states where it’s illegal for parents to spank their kids. Is it abuse? Not in itself, but it can be, if it’s done abusively (although I think abusing a child is as distinct from spanking them as locking a kid in a closet is distinct from sending them to their room). As for whether it’s a good idea or not, that I don’t know. I was spanked, rarely, I have a friend who was spanked pretty often, and another one who was never spanked at all, and as far as I can tell, we all turned out reasonably moral and well adjusted, so there’s an anecdote for you, if not statistical evidence.
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### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/4 "2002-11-21T22:28:23Z")
I’m all for spanking. But beyond extreme cases of abuse, I think it is also important for parents to show the positive loving side in even greater quantity. A lot of people who are messed up by forceful discipline are not messed up because they are beaten black-and-blue, but because some parents present a very severe image to their children - the _only_ way they relate to them is authoritative and austere. You’ve got to let your love flow - and show - and then the spanking itself will be taken in better spirit and have a more positive impact.
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### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/5 "2002-11-21T23:10:20Z")
Put me in the spanking camp too. However, I’m against using belts or wooden spoons (my mother’s implement of choice) - just a bare hand. If you leave a mark, you’ve over done it, IMO.
Also, spanking should never be done in anger, at the moment of the infraction. Instead, I say, send the kid to his room or time out or whatever until you both cool down. Tell him he’ll be getting a spanking. Then, when emotions are not so high, give the spanking and remind the child that it is a consequence of his earlier actions.
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### Author:  [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2002, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/6 "2002-11-21T23:26:43Z")
Hey, thanks for the shout out. I was wondering when someone was going to take up this argument.
As for my comments, you are absolutely right. There is no federal law against striking a child with a belt. However, every single state has a law protecting children and while almost all allow “reasonable use of physical force,” physical and emotional/mental harm is illegal. What is considered reasonable varies from [state to state](http://www.stophitting.com/laws/stateLegislation.php).
Oddly, almost all states have laws about reporting child abuse. Doctors, teachers, day care workers are required to report signs of abuse. So while a spanking may or may not be illegal, if it results in a bruise it must be reported (by certain professionals).
Only Minnesota prohibits the use of corporal punishment (along with Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Austria, Finland, Germany, Croatia, Latvia, Israel, and Cyprus).
As for the OP, well I think there is a significant difference between spanking a child in a calm and disciplined manner as a result of bad behavior and threatening or spanking a child in anger (esp. with a weapon, such as a belt).
The [American Academy of Pediatrics](http://www.aap.org/advocacy/ChildHealthMonth/spank.htm) has their own opinion.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/7 "2002-11-22T00:41:23Z")
Right.
Neither federal law nor any state law, with the possible exception of Minnesota, absolutely prohibit the use of a belt as a method of parental discipline. Every state criminalizes assault on a child once it passes a certain point. There is no bright-line test to determine when this line is crossed.
I don’t agree with the American Pediatrics Association, and it’s unclear to me on what data they base their assertions:
[quote]
[ul][li]It is harmful emotionally to both parent and child.[/li][li]Not only can it result in physical harm, but it teaches children that violence is an acceptable way to discipline or express anger. [/li][li]While stopping the behavior temporarily, it does not teach alternative behavior. [/li][li]It also interferes with the development of trust, a sense of security, and effective communication. (Spanking often becomes the method of communication.) [/li][li]It also may cause emotional pain and resentment.[/ul][/li][/quote]
The first is a conclusory statement. I was spanked - how was I emotionally harmed?
Spanking, without anything else, does not necessarily teach alternative behavior… unless the “alternative behavior” sought is simply to stop doing what the child was doing. Combined with other teaching, however, spanking seems effective in stopping the undesirable behavior.
The rest of the list spouts similar conclusions. What’s the methodology used to support those conclusions?
- Rick
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### Author:  [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/8 "2002-11-22T00:56:38Z")
I’m rather suspicious of the APA’s stance as well. Their description of spanking seems to be striking a child in a moment of anger. If they take that as their definition, I’m not surprised at the conclusions they reached (although I, too, would like to see their methedology). My parents spanked me when I maliciously stepped over the bounds they had established. This is very different from the APA’s definition, and IMHO not harmful as long as it doesn’t cross the line into abuse (i.e., leaving bruises, causing emotional harm, etc.). Yeah, I’d be mad at the time, but looking back I’m glad they discipined me.
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### Author:  [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/9 "2002-11-22T00:57:44Z")
_disciplined_
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### Author:  [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/10 "2002-11-22T01:27:18Z")
Here’s a rather lengthy [site](http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking.htm) with different points of view regarding spanking.
Here’s a [site](http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/) with various research studies about spanking.
Here are [ten reasons not to spank](http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html).
And finally, here’s a study (by Berkley, no less) that finds [no lasting harm](http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2001/08/24_spank.html) to spanking.
So you decide.
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### Author:  [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/11 "2002-11-22T01:32:00Z")
For the record, Joe\_Cool didn’t say SPANKING in the first instance, he said something akin to ‘giving them a taste of the belt’ and another gem which was ‘my dad taught me that a burglar was the least of my fears’ which leads me to believe that the discipline he’s promoting is a little more extreme than a swat on the butt, which I got many times.
Hitting a child with a leather belt, I believe, is too much.
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### Author:  [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/12 "2002-11-22T01:35:01Z")
Here’s Joe’s original statement (emphasis mine)
> [@](#):
>
> The right thing for you dad to do (IMO) would have been to _burn your ass, then as you gradually become able to sit down again_, talk to you and explain two things: 1. why it’s vitally important not to touch the guns without supervision and permission, and 2. that _if it happens again, what you got today will seem like a picnic on a warm summer day_. Kids don’t live by reason alone. _Sometimes a good, healthy dose of Dad’s belt is an important dietary supplement_.
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### Author:  [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/13 "2002-11-22T01:48:19Z")
I wonder why so many parents are giving their children to the state? Can’t punish them without the child taking them to court? Leave a ‘mark’ of any kind and the State comes for them. Well, let them have them then.
If people think that there is NEVER an excuse for something, then they are fooling themselves.
Okay, as a parent you do not believe in hitting a child. Good. Now when a wild child of the ghetto comes at you child with mayhem in mind, will you go against what you preach to help you child or will you just stand there dialing your cell phone frantically trying to get the police?
I do not approve of abuse either, but you nor I get to train all the children and so I am a bit skeptical of all the “flat” statements.
Life usually makes a fool out of unbendable things sooner or later.
YMMV
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### Author:  [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/14 "2002-11-22T02:09:57Z")
Yeah **jarbabyj** , I thought what **Joe\_Cool** said went a little too far as well. Which is why I responded in the way I did.
It just freaks me out when I hear parents speaking/acting so aggressively and violently towards their kids.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/15 "2002-11-22T02:17:40Z")
IMO anybody who hits a child with a belt is a subhuman piece of garbage.
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/16 "2002-11-22T02:19:57Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \*
> **Is it abuse? Not in itself, but it can be, if it’s done abusively.**
So spanking is abuse if it’s done abusively? Good to know. 🙂
I get your point though.
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### Author:  [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/17 "2002-11-22T03:29:35Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \*
> \*\*IMO anybody who hits a child with a belt is a subhuman piece of garbage. \*\*
Coming from you, I’ll take that as high praise. I’m sure my father, his father, and hundreds of generations of parents from all societies would agree as well.
Punishment is meaningless if it isn’t something to be avoided. A light tap on the bottom won’t do anything to prevent misbehavior. Pain is nature’s teaching device, and more pain teaches that something is more strongly to be avoided.
When you see a child (or worse, a teenager) running wild, causing trouble, being destructive, the natural and correct response is that it’s the parent’s fault. If you’re resentful that your daddy spanked you a few times and based on that you vow not to spank your kids, then you have a problem. And that problem is not that you were abused (wah). More likely, you were spoiled and have a fit if anything doesn’t go your way. Life is full of adversity - deal with it.
My daughter will not be one of those wild children you see, stealing, doing drugs, bullying, dropping out of school, etc. And it will be due to her parents.
As I said in the other thread, there are different degrees of misbehavior, and there are different degrees of punishment, and the punishment should fit the crime, so to speak. Should you use the belt when your child accidentally breaks a glass? Of course not. But if a child who knows better gets into dad’s gun cabinet without supervision, then there is a good reason. It’s a severe offense, it puts the child into severe danger, and deserves severe punishment – Not going to bed without supper, not taking away the playstation for a week. A sore butt that will serve to remind that child why that behavior was wrong.
And since we’re throwing up citations to opinion pieces, [here’s mine](http://www.geocities.com/~eingedi/the-belt.html).
And here’s my authority for spanking, even with a “weapon” as the bleeding-hearts like to call it when they’re trying to emotionalize and politicize the discussion. :rolleyes: :
> [@](#):
>
> Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
> Proverbs 22:15
>
> Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
> Proverbs 23:13-14
>
> The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
> Proverbs 29:15
>
> Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest; yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul.
> Proverbs 29:17
>
> He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
> Proverbs 13:24
Because God comes before Country, and because raising my child correctly is my job, and because I can legally be held responsible for the actions of my child, I frankly wouldn’t care if spanking were illegal. My responsibilities to my God and my family take precedence over the government’s desire to parent me and my children.
Joe Cool,
Subhuman Piece of Garbage, Extraordanaire
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### Author:  [@Primaflora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Primaflora)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/18 "2002-11-22T03:43:47Z")
Well I think Joe Cool got one idea right :(. Adults hitting children with sticks do qualify as subhuman pieces of garbage.
Belting kids with objects is obscene and should never be necessary. I don’t understand why you would ever need to hit a child with a stick to get your point through. If spanking is so damned diddly fine and effective, why would you ever need to escalate to physical assault with a weapon?
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### Author:  [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/19 "2002-11-22T03:49:01Z")
Out of curiosity, are those in favor of parents being able to hit their kids also in favor of being hit by their kids?
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### Author:  [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/20 "2002-11-22T04:07:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by robertliguori \*
> \*\*Out of curiosity, are those in favor of parents being able to hit their kids also in favor of being hit by their kids? \*\*
What an amazingly stupid post. Does my right to ground my son mean that he has the right to ground me? Are you completely ignorant of the difference in rights of a parent versus a child?
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