# Spanking Is NOT 'Child Abuse'? And the belt isn't necessarily abuse, either **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037 "2002-11-21T22:10:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/61 "2002-11-22T16:06:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lokij \* > \*\*My mother and father disciplined me with corporeal punishment, with belt, hand and switch. You know you did something really really bad when you heard my mother say “Go cut me a switch” ;\>. Every time I was punished I can say that I deserved it and I’m glad they did it. It was never done in anger or caused me any lasting harm but it did make a point and I certainly learned from it. I’m not sure whether I will use corporeal punishment with my kids, I’d like to believe it won’t be necessary but I’m not quite that naive so I’ll wait and see. > > Anybody brave enough to call my parents a “subhuman piece of garbage” to my face had better be ready for punishment of a different sort. > > Asshole. \*\* I can’t add much to this (other than to say I received _corporal_ 😃 punishment). Now as a parent, I can count on the fingers (not including the thumb) of one hand the number of times I’ve had to use corporal punishment (certainly less than I received). Every time my son had the option of changing his behavior before being spanked. Other than an occassional attention-grabbing hand smacking, my son was never hit without lots warning or chances to change his behavior. I won’t hit my step daughter, and also council her mother to rein in her temper. Two different children who respond to different punishment differently, and it’s my job to find and use the most effective. I especially agree with your second and third paragraphs, **lokij** and will back you up all the way. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/62 "2002-11-22T16:13:41Z")
I don’t understand what the argument is about Punnishing a child for a minor offense or without explaining what the child did wrong is called bad parenting. Whether the punnishment is spanking, time out, or taking away a priveledge, these would be inappropriate without just cause and a good explanation. Too much discipline has bad results, to little discipline has bad results. Walking that line is hard. But a positive, loving relationship between parent and child can exist whether spanking is used or not. Amy (mom to 3) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/63 "2002-11-22T16:13:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Not so. It is germane to whether you can refute them by calling their arguments a logical error, as you did. Honestly, I don’t even care whether you consider it an error in formal logic or not, since the _result_ is the same, that is, the failure to acknowledge that positive results can be achieved without spanking. > [@](#): > > Yeah, but the point is that by the time you have reached the age at which spanking is not appropriate, you will also have gotten out of the habit of mouthing off (to some extent or another) as a result of the earlier discipline. While I admit that this might work for extremely childish and unsophisticated undesirable behavior, I would argue that there is a great deal of behavioral continuity between young children, adolescents, and teenagers that renders this sort of conditioning ineffective. For example, basic verbal disrespect. While it might be simple to beat it out of a young child, I would argue that it is more complicated to use corporal punishment against a teenager, who in the process of self-definition resorts to verbal disrespect. So you use corporal punishment on the child when he is young, but cease to do so when he is older due to social inappropriateness and often enough, physical danger. This is inconsistent behavior, behavior that _damages_ the stimulus-response relationship in the child’s mind. > [@](#): > > Your assumption is the very crux of the issue here. Can you answer my example or not? Would you choose a spanking solution when a non-spanking one would work equally well? > [@](#): > > But I would also point to one advantage of spanking in that it is over sooner than many alternatives, so a loving relationship can resume sooner. I fail to see how a loving relationship ever needs to be interrupted in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/64 "2002-11-22T16:34:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > Honestly, I don’t even care whether you consider it an error in formal logic or not, since the _result_ is the same, that is, the failure to acknowledge that positive results can be achieved without spanking. The notion that the same positive results can be achieved without spanking is nothing more than your assertion. This is no more valid than the assertion of others that contradicts it. It is therefore significant as to whether we have one side making a logical error, or merely two dueling opinions. > [@](#): > > While I admit that this might work for extremely childish and unsophisticated undesirable behavior, I would argue that there is a great deal of behavioral continuity between young children, adolescents, and teenagers that renders this sort of conditioning ineffective. I don’t know what this means, in the context of my argument. > [@](#): > > For example, basic verbal disrespect. While it might be simple to beat it out of a young child, I would argue that it is more complicated to use corporal punishment against a teenager, who in the process of self-definition resorts to verbal disrespect. > > So you use corporal punishment on the child when he is young, but cease to do so when he is older due to social inappropriateness and often enough, physical danger. This is inconsistent behavior, behavior that _damages_ the stimulus-response relationship in the child’s mind. I don’t think so. As noted, discipline in older children is less dependent on conditioning. Further, the transition to non-spanking is generally a gradual one. > [@](#): > > Would you choose a spanking solution when a non-spanking one would work equally well? It would depend on what the non-spanking solution was (as per my comment about duration). But generally not. Again, the primary point of the pro-spanking argument is that it is more effective than non-spanking methods. To presume that other methods are equally effective and then pose the question adds nothing. > [@](#): > > I fail to see how a loving relationship ever needs to be interrupted in the first place. It does not seem revolutionary to me to note that any form of parental discipline is likely to engender a certain amount of temporary tension between the parent and child. How long this lasts is the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/65 "2002-11-22T16:46:34Z")
Excellent post, **Maeglin**! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > \*\*I disagree. In fact, I challenge _anyone_ to imagine a situation in which a spanking solution is superior to a non-spanking solution assuming, for the moment, that both work. I’ll accept this challenge. The situation: a fourteen-month child toddling about the room with Daddy’s keys in hand, reaching for an electrical socket. This is in a room that is not baby-proofed, obviously, so the socket is unprotected. I contend that a swift smack when he touches the socket is an excellent learning tool for the lesson, “Don’t touch electrical sockets.” What is your non-spanking response? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![hedra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/779978/32.png) [@hedra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hedra)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/66 "2002-11-22T16:48:13Z")
Okay, if I can provide examples of a non-spanking reaction being as effective as a spanking one, can we then assume that the assumption above is correct? Barring pre-existing mental health issues in the child. I suspect I can, as I know rather a large number of children who are well-behaved, polite, and whose parents are complimented on their disciplinary success - but who do not spank. Period. Many of them are Quakers, but some are not. They are firm, clear, and not wishy-washy in the discipline they do apply. They will listen to discussion and explanation, but they have the final call on what is and is not appropriate behavior. They don’t give a lot of room (time-wise, repeat offenses before acting) to negotiate, either, and the consequences that come from misbehavior are quick and relevant. Even when safety issues occur, they have not had to hit to obtain compliance from their kids. However, when I’ve discussed it, all of them have said that they also are not controlled by a fear of hitting their kids if it did seem necessary. It just doesn’t end up being necessary, because they take steps to ensure that it is not necessary. Are their kids somehow genetically superior to other kids? Or are the parents just capable of being firm, clear, direct, and consistent, without using physical force? It takes some patience and a lot of self control to say no, firmly and without emotional investment, and then immediately take the (non-spanking) action necessary to get the point across to a toddler whose first reaction to your first no is to laugh in your face. It takes some willpower to enforce your chosen discipline quickly, whether it is simply acting bored with the misbehavior (one of the most effective techniques on most toddlers I know), or physical punishment. Will it work for all kids? Maybe not. No more than spanking seems to work for all kids. But it works for so many of the kids I know, I suspect it would work for most of the kids for whom spanking ‘works’. And given that I’ve seen it work on a wide variety of personalities and family styles, I think that assumption (that the two methods both work) is solid. Kids need immediate reactions/consequences in order to moderate their behavior. But immediate consequences can be as simple as a facial expression. Case in point. We’ve got two very obedient children. The first was, frankly, born that way. He checked to see if things were okay before doing them, long before he could walk. Cool. The second was NOT born that way. If you didn’t respond immediately the right way and maintain your stance, he’d push it, look for your buttons (to push), laugh at you, ignore you. However, once **epeepunk** and I realized that part of the problem was that we weren’t being consistant both in our individual responses and between the two of us (that is, his response and mine differed), and we were a bit sloppy on the enforcement (sometimes reacting immediately, sometimes not) - and we corrected that, he started really listening and responding when we say no. He knows that if I say ‘please put that down’ I will come over and physically assist him in putting it down if he does not. So he puts it down, 9 times out of ten (the tenth time, I help him put it down). If he has previously been told not to play with that item, all it takes is a serious look, not even a word. Not bad for a one-year-old. And he’s been responding like that for more than a month. Probably from about 8-9 months, when we realized that our lack of consistancy was the issue. And no spanking required. He isn’t old enough to understand the principles involved (‘don’t play with your brother’s toys’) but I don’t have to hit him to get his attention, and I don’t have to hit him - even lightly, on the back of the hand - to get him to remember that something is not permitted. The consequence matches the act - if he doesn’t put it down, it will be put down for him, and he will be prevented from trying again, immediately. Do we mess up? Yeah, sometimes we get sloppy again. But a slight tweak on OUR end gets immediate results on his, without having to hit. It works. It works for safety issues (don’t touch power outlets, don’t hit). It works for social issues (don’t hit when you are angry - yes, our one-year-old knows not to hit when angry). I suspect that spanking works so well when done ‘properly’ (that is, without emotional baggage) because it is utterly consistant. You don’t have to think about what reaction to give, there’s just one. Immediate, clear, direct. But if you have immediate, clear, direct reactions of any type, it will also work in most cases. Will it work for a kid who is already out of control to the point that the police know him by name? Maybe not. He won’t trust that the system is reliable anyway. But violence, especially if unexpected, is quite a wake-up call. And if you have made it clear that you will employ it, consistantly, reliably, every time, it will work. Might not solve the problem underneath, but I doubt anyone really thinks it does solve the problem underneath - spanking isn’t the solution, understanding that a behavior is not permitted is the solution. That requires rules and discussion, even if it is limited to ‘you will never threaten your mother again’. IzzyR, I suspect that you haven’t seen it in action because there are plenty of people out there who aren’t consistant in their reactions, period. That’s not the fault of not spanking. That’s willpower and self-awareness, maybe, plus a misunderstanding of the goal of parenting (not to be best friends NOW but to have a loving and respectful relationship with effective and appropriate adults, later). And resorting to spanking might be slightly more effective for those who cannot formulate an alternate plan. But I suspect that spanking by those same (inconsistant) parents would just result in different problems, not a solution. Anyway, that’s my take on the debate as it has evolved here. As for the OP - is spanking abuse? It can be. Not disciplining can be neglect, whether physical or simply setting boundaries and enforcing them firmly. I don’t think spanking is necessary for normal children (not chemically unbalanced or dealing with severe emotional issues, possibly from lack of consistant reactions earlier). I think that even many kids who already have problems respond well to consistant non-spanking methods. It takes a lot more effort on the parent’s part, though. Somehow, I don’t mind putting in the effort at the front end of things. It seems to work, and I haven’t had to spank anyone. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/67 "2002-11-22T16:52:17Z")
Bricker, the point is Joe\_Cool said that beating with a belt is an ‘important dietary supplement’ (grotesquely with a smilie after it), implying (to me at least) that it was done on a regular basis just to instill fear and submission into the child. I think we can agree that a fourteen month old reaching for a socket doesn’t need to be beaten with a strap of leather. I’m for spanking in truly dangerous, life threatening circumstancces, like running out of the yard, setting things on fire, whathaveyou. My problem (and I think many people’s problem in the original thread) is the idea that a belt be used to the point that the child can’t sit down any more. ---
**Author:** ![hedra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/779978/32.png) [@hedra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hedra)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/68 "2002-11-22T16:53:09Z")
BTW, the keys-and-outlet thing happened with us once. My best friend lept for the toddler and said ‘No!’ and took away the keys. Very upsetting for toddler, who loves keys. End of problem. And yeah, we kept a better eye on him when he was allowed to play with keys again. But he never went for an outlet again, with anything. Losing his toy was bad enough to set the lesson. Do you know any toddler who doesn’t REALLY notice when a toy is taken away? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/69 "2002-11-22T16:56:02Z")
> [@](#): > > The notion that the same positive results can be achieved without spanking is nothing more than your assertion. This is no more valid than the assertion of others that contradicts it. It is therefore significant as to whether we have one side making a logical error, or merely two dueling opinions. Whether or not I think positive effects can be achieved without spanking is a side issue. Others have asserted vociferously that obtaining positive results without spanking is impossible. Spare the rod, spoil the child, as **Joe\_Cool** quoted for us. I also fail to see why the idea of two dueling opinions and one side making a logical error are mutually exclusive. A) It is impossible to achieve positive results without spanking. B) It is possible to achieve positive results without spanking. A is an opinion, A is also a logical error. B is an opinion, B is not a formal logical error. Some are making the argument: B’) It is impossible to achieve positive results _with_ spanking. I believe that this is both an opinion _and_ a logical error. > [@](#): > > I don’t know what this means, in the context of my argument. Sorry if I was unclear. The context of your argument, as I read it, was that behaviors can be elimitated by means of punishment. I think this is not possible due to certain facts of human development (the fact that most teenagers are a royal pain in the ass regardless of prior rearing). Hence, to develop the argument, I think that the potential harm of spanking outweighs the possible gain. > [@](#): > > I don’t think so. As noted, discipline in older children is less dependent on conditioning. Further, the transition to non-spanking is generally a gradual one. I disagree. The matrices of behavior and punishment grow more complicated, but the conditioning itself doesn’t change. Same basic concepts, more nuances. And while the transition may be as gradual as you like, one day you hit the kid for mouthing off, another day you don’t. I don’t see how you can get around this dichotomy. > [@](#): > > It would depend on what the non-spanking solution was (as per my comment about duration). But generally not. Again, the primary point of the pro-spanking argument is that it is more effective than non-spanking methods. To presume that other methods are equally effective and then pose the question adds nothing. The point I am trying to make is to force pro-spanking advocates to conceed that in a hypothetical situation in which you can spank or not spank with roughly equal success, they would choose the non-spanking solution, thereby shifting the burden to the parent to make more of an effort to devise these kinds of solutions all the time. I just can’t get around the fact in my mind that spanking is an _b priori_ inferior means of punishment, all things being equal. And I would like you, or any other spanking advocates, to agree or disagree plainly, without obfuscation or evasion. > [@](#): > > It does not seem revolutionary to me to note that any form of parental discipline is likely to engender a certain amount of temporary tension between the parent and child. How long this lasts is the issue. So you are in fact talking only about stability or lack of ill feelings, not about a “loving relationship.” Maybe returning to normal so swiftly after unwanted behavior is _not_ effective in deterring it. ---
**Author:** ![hedra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/779978/32.png) [@hedra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hedra)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/70 "2002-11-22T16:56:14Z")
And for the record, while I’ll put the effort into not spanking, I am also not saying that I would never under and circumstances use it - if it was the only apparent immediate-impact reaction, I’d use it. I just think I have other reactions that work as well, so far, for every situation I have encountered. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/71 "2002-11-22T17:00:32Z")
> [@](#): > > The situation: a fourteen-month child toddling about the room with Daddy’s keys in hand, reaching for an electrical socket. > > This is in a room that is not baby-proofed, obviously, so the socket is unprotected. > > I contend that a swift smack when he touches the socket is an excellent learning tool for the lesson, “Don’t touch electrical sockets.” > > What is your non-spanking response? Ok, no argument here from me. I should narrow what I mean by spanking. It’s not any form of physical discipline whatsoever. Yes, what you post above is an appropriate response, in my not-so-professional opinion. What I have in mind is willful unwanted behavior in a child fully capable of communicating with the parent and fully aware of the consequences of his actions. Essentially, disobedience. Not an infant’s dangerous curiosity. And that’s **a priori** above, not **b priori**. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/72 "2002-11-22T17:04:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*Bricker, the point is Joe\_Cool said that beating with a belt is an ‘important dietary supplement’ (grotesquely with a smilie after it), implying (to me at least) that it was done on a regular basis just to instill fear and submission into the child. > > I think we can agree that a fourteen month old reaching for a socket doesn’t need to be beaten with a strap of leather. > > I’m for spanking in truly dangerous, life threatening circumstancces, like running out of the yard, setting things on fire, whathaveyou. My problem (and I think many people’s problem in the original thread) is the idea that a belt be used to the point that the child can’t sit down any more. \*\* True enough. And I agree that any sort of regular physical discipline, even spanking, would make me question the parenting skills of the spanker. But I started this thread not because of **Joe\_Cool** ’s original comments, but because of the lamentable tendency of people to take a perfectly sound general principle, such as the above, and generalize it to a “Don’t ever hit your kids,” or “You’re an inhuman piece of garbage,” as the case may be. And, consistent with that tendency, this thread has produced both types of responses. To my way of thinking - and of parenting - a swat should be used only with a child too young to understand the immediate danger of something, and for a danger that’s real and life-threatening. I wouldn’t spank a child for, say, drawing on the walls with a crayon. But for reaching for a hot stove burner, an electrical outlet, or running into the street, I am convinced that the immediate pain and shock (more the latter, I think) of a spank is an excellent teacher. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![hedra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/779978/32.png) [@hedra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hedra)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/73 "2002-11-22T17:20:21Z")
Reminds me of someone I met online whose stance was very “NEVER EVER SPANK” But she felt that a child getting burned by touching a hot oven rack was effective parenting. Or falling off a chair backwards when climbing after being told not to. Taught the lesson, didn’t it? And at least she never HIT them… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/74 "2002-11-22T17:35:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > Whether or not I think positive effects can be achieved without spanking is a side issue. I don’t think it is a side issue, as noted. But regardless, it happens to be the issue you were addressing your comments to, and I addressed mine to it as well. > [@](#): > > A) It is impossible to achieve positive results without spanking. > B) It is possible to achieve positive results without spanking. > > A is an opinion, A is also a logical error. > B is an opinion, B is not a formal logical error. I don’t see what you’ve added here. As noted, A is not a logical error. > [@](#): > > The context of your argument, as I read it, was that behaviors can be elimitated by means of punishment. I think this is not possible due to certain facts of human development (the fact that most teenagers are a royal pain in the ass regardless of prior rearing). I’m not sure about eliminating. But I’m sure about modifying. As people grow they develop patterns of behaviour that perpetuate themselves as they get older. To the extent that these habits have been ingrained as a child they will be harder to modify as adults. And to the extent that positive habits have been ingrained as a child, it will be easier to maintain them. > [@](#): > > The matrices of behavior and punishment grow more complicated, but the conditioning itself doesn’t change. Same basic concepts, more nuances. Disagree. There is a fundamental difference between behavioral conditioning based on simple association - as one might train a seal or a tiny child - and one based on a rational “if I do X the consequences will be Y” thought process. Your assertions about “stimulus-response relationships in classical conditioning” relate to the former, not to the latter. > [@](#): > > The point I am trying to make is to force pro-spanking advocates to conceed that in a hypothetical situation in which you can spank or not spank with roughly equal success, they would choose the non-spanking solution, thereby shifting the burden to the parent to make more of an effort to devise these kinds of solutions all the time. “More of an effort” compared to what? > [@](#): > > I just can’t get around the fact in my mind that spanking is an b priori inferior means of punishment, all things being equal. And I would like you, or any other spanking advocates, to agree or disagree plainly, without obfuscation or evasion. I’m sorry, I must continue to “obfuscate”. In most cases, yes. In others, no. But, more significantly, there are many cases in which all things are not equal. > [@](#): > > So you are in fact talking only about stability or lack of ill feelings, not about a “loving relationship.” Maybe returning to normal so swiftly after unwanted behavior is not effective in deterring it. Maybe not. But if there are other aspects - e.g. pain - that _do_ deter, you don’t have to rely on the deterrent effect of ill feelings. I would say that not having to use an extended period of ill will as a deterrant is one positive aspect of spanking. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/75 "2002-11-22T18:12:47Z")
Funny how those who believe in abusive parenting\* are also those who are firm believers in an abusive, hateful God who throws you into Hell for not doing exactly what he wants. - - Not all spanking is abusive, but if you leave a mark, you’ve gone too far. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/76 "2002-11-22T18:26:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > Funny how those who believe in abusive parenting are also those who are firm believers in an abusive, hateful God who throws you into Hell for not doing exactly what he wants._ And it’s also funny how the champion of loving, caring homosexual catholics, who was banned for raving, abusive, hateful language, who is against the brutality of spanking, and who hates the “abusive, hateful God who throws you into Hell for not doing exactly what he wants,” also preaches a loving, merciful God who throws you into a pit of fire anyway, just for good measure, even if you **do** do what he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/77 "2002-11-22T18:49:17Z")
Joe, thanks for showing yourself to be as ignorant on the matter of Purgatory as you are on everything else religious. I’ve apologized for my past intemperance and attempted to mend my ways. You’re still spreading the same manure around with glee and calling your bigotry “love.” Kirk ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/78 "2002-11-22T18:52:32Z")
**slight hijack** My daughters teacher tried to play the parent. Now everytime I walk up the stairs to pick my daughter up, Mrs. S has her tail between her legs and knows she is just the teacher. I have had great teacher in school. Till this day, I can remember songs and games that taught me something. They were the teachers that taught me things like: math, reading, phonics, games, science. I also had a few idiots for teacher. Those were the ones that though they were everyones parents. Sound like you Anahita. The crazy thing is that when someone says that spanking with the belt is ok, a bunch of morons come and say that the person said it is ok to beat your child up. You guys have very good imaginations. Use it for Blues Clues and not for Great Debates. When I was bad, my mother made me go get a switch off the tree myself. Yeah, I tried to run. Then my legs had red marks all over them. I knew that running would make it 10 time worse. I think it is a childs automatic response. You know what, I survived. Not only that but I am a well rounded person. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/79 "2002-11-22T18:54:13Z")
A bit harsh. I am sorry…JD ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037/80 "2002-11-22T19:08:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*You know what, I survived. Not only that but I am a well rounded person. \*\* I hope you’ll forgive me when I say, from what I’ve read of you: You are NOT. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spanking-is-not-child-abuse-and-the-belt-isnt-necessarily-abuse-either/138037.md?page=5)