# Spartacus Vengeance, **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 28, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997 "2012-01-28T17:08:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/41 "2012-04-02T23:24:31Z")
Any show that will kill off SIX major characters in a single episode has some serious balls. I’m not completely sold on the Lucretia situation (and I was totally not sure until I read the interviews that Illythia was dead - she deserved better than that, in my opinion) but I personally really liked Ashur’s death. I know a lot of people thought it was crap, but I love how he clearly bested Naevia at every turn but ended up dead because he couldn’t just kill her already. He had to gloat a little, show off that he won - totally within his character since the beginning. And it’s what did him in at the end. Perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/42 "2012-04-03T00:14:32Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I liked it. I thought the most interesting thing about her and Quintus was that even though they were thoroughly evil, they both honestly loved each other and, Lucretia anyways, was very committed to the idea of starting a family. So the fact that she’s secretly been fixated on Quintus and her unborn kid through the last season seems perfectly in character. And that’s fine - I was right on board with the idea of her killing Ilithyia and taking her baby, but then to kill _herself and the baby_… that struck me as just a bit too far, especially since she’s been working steadily to improve her own position by manipulating Ilithyia and Ashur and… well… pretty much everybody, really. I _get_ why it was done - at this stage, I’d expect Capua to be left behind as we go to Season 3 and start ramping up the scale leading into the Third Servile War which took place all across Italy - and thus Lucretia’s role would shrink in importance - so may as well give the character a dramatic death. > [@](#): > > Plus the writers seem to have decided to “clear the slate” as far as villans go, presumably so they can bring on Crassus et al. next season. Yeah, pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/43 "2012-04-03T00:17:47Z")
> [@interface2x](#): > > I personally really liked Ashur’s death. I know a lot of people thought it was crap, but I love how he clearly bested Naevia at every turn but ended up dead because he couldn’t just kill her already. He had to gloat a little, show off that he won - totally within his character since the beginning. And it’s what did him in at the end. Perfect. Well, plus the second he kills her, Crixus is gonna kill _him_… I can see him wanting to drag it out while he tries to think up a way to sleaze his way out this rather unpalatable situation. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/44 "2012-04-03T00:32:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And that’s fine - I was right on board with the idea of her killing Ilithyia and taking her baby, but then to kill _herself and the baby_… that struck me as just a bit too far, especially since she’s been working steadily to improve her own position by manipulating Ilithyia and Ashur and… well… pretty much everybody, really. Except she wasn’t really trying to improve her situation, she just wanted to keep the baby safe and stay close to Illithya. We thought this was all just a blind and that, like first season Lucretia, she was just scheming for her own advantage. That her 100 yard stare and talk of hearing the Gods talk to her was just a blind. But really, she was honestly nuts the whole time. She just wanted the baby for herself so she could die with it (and presumably, take Illithya out with her). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/45 "2012-04-03T02:48:14Z")
I dunno, Lucretia’s manipulations regarding Seppia and Ashur go a little beyond (and indeed may have complicated) the mere goal of keeping Illithiya in Capua. I’m also not a fan of explanations that run along the lines of “well, it’s because she was crazy the whole time. Something doesn’t make sense? It doesn’t matter - she was crazy and crazy don’t make sense.” ---
**Author:** ![Vicullum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6de8d8/32.png) [@Vicullum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vicullum)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/46 "2012-04-03T03:06:20Z")
[Here’s an interview](http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Spartacus-Vengeance-Steven-DeKnight-Lucretia-Ilithyia-Some-Season-3-Details-41056.html) with the series creator where he explains his thoughts on why certain characters had to go: > [@](#): > > She’s [Ilithyia] completely dead. So many characters died, but especially with Lucretia and Ilithyia, we really looked at what was coming next in the story, with Crassus and Caesar launching a full-scale war against the rebel slaves. Ilithyia and Lucretia just didn’t have a place in that world. There was no scenario where Crassus was going to take those two with them, or take Ilithyia with them. Crassus doesn’t know them. They would be damaged goods no matter how you sliced it, so they really didn’t fit into the world. We felt that jamming a character into the season just to bring the actor or actress back just didn’t feel right. > > As much as the audience may love that character, I personally think that if you don’t do the character justice in a season, they will start to not like that character. It will change their memory of that character. So, best to end on a high note. Could she come back in a flashback? Absolutely possible. No plans at the moment, but I absolutely love Viva Bianca and Lucy Lawless, and they were fantastic together. So, I won’t rule out a flashback, but at this point there’s no plans. Really the only death I don’t buy is Ashur’s, just because for a character as clever and ruthless as him he had many outs. Like when Glaber first accused him, why didn’t he just say, “Look, once ole’ Spart is dead I’ll have my freedom, a ludus, and a new wife. What would I have to gain by plotting against you?” And if that doesn’t work and he’s forced to hike up the mountain, why didn’t he just duck out of sight once he got high enough, wait a bit, them come back and say they refused the offer? How would anyone contradict him? And even when he was dueling Naevia he was obviously in control of the fight and just toying with her. Why not try holding her hostage with a sword to her throat until he’s clear of the group? ---
**Author:** ![tsm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/db5fbb/32.png) [@tsm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/47 "2012-04-03T03:22:52Z")
Not that I’m upset about it, but that info about Ilithyia is somewhat of a spoiler since her fate was not made clear in the final episode. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/48 "2012-04-03T04:10:07Z")
Why are they bringing Ceaser into it? He was at that time simply known as the son of a family that actually believed that they were descended from Venus as well as being the King of Bithynia’s bum boy. I don’t think he had any part in the war. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/49 "2012-04-03T13:22:30Z")
> [@tsm](#): > > Not that I’m upset about it, but that info about Ilithyia is somewhat of a spoiler since her fate was not made clear in the final episode. I don’t really think of it as a spoiler since the haziness of her fate in the show wasn’t intentional - they admit that they just didn’t do a good job communicating to the audience that she is dead. When the show comes back for Season 3, they won’t do a big reveal about her, she just won’t be there and we won’t see her again. And in regards to Julius Caesar, another interview with Steven DeKnight at [the AV Club](http://www.avclub.com/articles/spartacus-creator-steven-deknight,71676/2/) talks about that: > [@](#): > > And then, in discussions with our historical consultants, they threw out that this was an era in which not a lot is known about what Caesar did. They knew he was a tribune, and it was possible that he served under Crassus. So we latched immediately onto that: “Young Julius Caesar!” You can’t go wrong there. So we added him in. But we really wanted to take the other characters and the other things that happened and roll them into the Crassus campaign, because it felt more like a complete and emotional story we could tell. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/50 "2012-04-03T17:53:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m also not a fan of explanations that run along the lines of “well, it’s because she was crazy the whole time. Something doesn’t make sense? It doesn’t matter - she was crazy and crazy don’t make sense.” I don’t like it when a character is revealed to be crazy after the fact as an explanation of plotholes, but in this case Lucritia was established to be crazy at the beginning of the season. And crazy or not, I think all her actions do make sense in respect to her final goal (granted the goal itself was pretty out there). She tries to head off the abortion thing by getting Ashur to switch vials, she tries to get herself and Illythia sent to Rome together, she tries and succeeds in getting Illythia’s trust back, etc. > [@AK84](#): > > Why are they bringing Ceaser into it? He was at that time simply known as the son of a family that actually believed that they were descended from Venus as well as being the King of Bithynia’s bum boy. I don’t think he had any part in the war. He had been in the military, was in Rome and a client of Crassus at the time. I don’t think we really know one way or another, but it makes sense he would’ve participated in the Servile war. I hope they have a Pompey character though, seems like they could do a lot more with the Crassus-Pompey rivalry then with Caesar running around forshadowing all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997/51 "2012-04-04T04:15:16Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > She tries to head off the abortion thing by getting Ashur to switch vials, she tries to get herself and Illythia sent to Rome together, she tries and succeeds in getting Illythia’s trust back, etc. On review (specifically of episode 5, “Libertus”), I’ll concede the point, in part because I was misremembering where the original red vial of abortifacient came from. For some reason I thought Lucretia had supplied it - instead it first appears in Illythia’s possession, it origins unexplained, and Lucretia goes to some length to talk Illythia into delaying, and Ashur into sabotaging the effort. Overall, though, she strikes as a bit too functional to be nuts, but of course this is a culture much more inclined to ritual suicide than we are, anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spartacus-vengeance/610997.md?page=2)