# Spavined Gelding, come here please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442 "2002-07-23T20:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/1 "2002-07-23T20:47:12Z")
I don’t wish to say this in **Kricket** ’s [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=127006), so I’ll say it here. You went and posted this: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*If living in the 21st Century means having to live with murderous Yahoos, armed to the teeth and intent on mayhem I want nothing to do with it. I appreciate that I can’t dwell on a safer and mostly imaginary time and place, but I don’t see why any one should have to put up with this sort of insanity, no matter what any number of the misinformed and firearms obsessed my thing about the benefits of an armed citizenry. I say to hell with them, to hell with their proclivity to violence and to hell with the petty vendettas that generate these horrors. Some days you just want to crawl into a hole. \*\* Unless I’m reading you _completely_ wrong, you’ve just painted me, and people like me, with responsibility for the despicable, horrid, tragic crime in the linked thread. Explain yourself, if you can. _Show me_ that wasn’t the thrust of your statement, and I’ll appologise. I don’t think you can, and I don’t wish to hijack **Kricket** ’s thread, so here we are. If that _was_, as I suspect, your intent, then _ **Fuck you** _. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/2 "2002-07-23T21:06:17Z")
Well, it seems to me that the “murderous Yahoos, armed to the teeth and intent on mayhem” referred to the perpetrators of the drive-by shooting. OTOH, “the misinformed and firearms- obsessed” does seem to refer to gun owners in general, but we’ll have to wqit for **SG** to explain. I think we can all agree that guns are too readily available in the US, leading to such tragic incidents. Certainly, we should work harder at both preserving Second Amendment rights for responsible citizens AND keeping weapons out of the hands of scum who kill children. ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/3 "2002-07-23T21:13:21Z")
Wow, **Tranq** , did you take a tooth or two out when that knee jerked? ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/4 "2002-07-23T21:21:32Z")
What we can agree on, I think, is that criminals are all too freely roaming in the US, leading to such tragic acts of craven, cold-blooded murder. Certainly we should work harder at preserving the Second Amendment rights of all law abiding citizens and removing the scum who kill children from our society, period. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/5 "2002-07-23T21:38:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Spavined Gelding_ > …no matter what any number of the misinformed and firearms obsessed my thing about the benefits of an armed citizenry. I say to hell with them, to hell with their proclivity to violence… I don’t know, I think **Tranquilis** has a right to be peeved about this. I read that as implying that people who feel the citizenry should be allowed to be armed are misinformed and obsessed with guns, and that they are prone to destructive violence. Hell, I don’t even own a gun, probably never will, and I think that _ **Spavined Gelding** _ is the one being kneejerk, not **Tranquilis**. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/6 "2002-07-23T21:51:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I think we can all agree that guns are too readily available in the US, leading to such tragic incidents. Your conclusion does not follow your thesis, gobear. Despite a massive proliferation of guns, and especially handguns, over the past twenty years (give or take), the murder rate of children shows no corresponding increase. Therefore, I cannot agree with you. > [@](#): > > Certainly, we should work harder at both preserving Second Amendment rights for responsible citizens AND keeping weapons out of the hands of scum who kill children. This, however, I **can** agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/7 "2002-07-23T22:56:46Z")
OK, I’ve read your stuff. Which one of you want’s to argue that these murderous Yahoos were advancing their sacred, God given, Second Amendment Rights when they sprayed a backyard barbeque with gunfire? If there is a right to go armed there is an equal right to go armed with intent to do mayhem. This is a hideous thing, it should not be allowed to happen, but it cannot be stopped as long as firearms are freely available to any Yahoo that wants one. Somebody tell me that this would have happened if the Yahoos were reduced to drive-by rock throwing. Somebody tell me that things would be better if the little girl’s family had returned fire. This sort of thing is going to go on as long as this country continues its love affair with guns. How many kids have to be butchered before our friends understand that we do not now have the power to keep fire arms out of the hands of the irresponsible and the criminal while preserving firearms to the law abiding and respectable? Sooner or later we will have to make good drivers and bad drivers observe the same speed limit, and we will have to institute at least fire arms registration and licensing of handguns if we are going to prevent these horrors. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/8 "2002-07-23T23:18:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\* If there is a right to go armed there is an equal right to go armed with intent to do mayhem. \*\* No. This does not follow. (And, since I don’t tend to step into firearms debates, as a matter of preference, that’s all I will say on the matter.) ---
**Author:** ![apotheosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@apotheosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apotheosis)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/9 "2002-07-23T23:20:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > **If there is a right to go armed there is an equal right to go armed with intent to do mayhem.** Could you please point out where anyone was granted a “right to go armed with an intent to do mayhem?” I must’ve missed that part. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/10 "2002-07-23T23:21:00Z")
Yes, there would be fewer shootings if no one had guns. We (in the U.S.) can’t do that. We could arm everybody, make it illegal to be in public while unarmed, and try to turn massacres into general gunfights, on the grounds that no one but an idiot breaks a Mexican standoff the hard way, but people have shown themselves to be such idiots that the only thing we can do is rant, and hopre for kevlar denim in Gap. ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/11 "2002-07-23T23:40:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Somebody tell me that things would be better if the little girl’s family had returned fire. \*\* Just FYI, someone did, and was [arrested](http://www.channel3000.com/news/1570966/detail.html) _from the story_ > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, a Davenport man has been charged with going armed with intent and terrorism in a case related to the shooting. Albert Miller, 37, is accused of going to a nearby house and firing in retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/12 "2002-07-24T02:17:31Z")
And there you go. He was charged with being armed with intent. Ergo, the earlier statement that having the right to go armed means having the right to go armed with intent for mayhem has now been proven false. ---
**Author:** ![Forbin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Forbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forbin)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/13 "2002-07-24T02:25:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*If there is a right to go armed \*\* This is currently legal in the United States. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*\*then(implied)\*there is an equal right to go armed with intent to do mayhem. \*\* The United States has numerous laws against murder, armed robbery, assault, etc. It’s obvious upon even the most brief review of what you have written that you are so blinded by your ideology re: firearms, that you are unable to reason. You’re raving. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/14 "2002-07-24T03:02:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Sooner or later we will have to make good drivers and bad drivers observe the same speed limit, and we will have to institute at least fire arms registration and licensing of handguns if we are going to prevent these horrors. There is a big difference between what you say here and the implied hostility towards “gun rights” people in the quoted bit in the OP. I’m sure that a great many people who support individuals’ right to bear arms also support registration and licensing. You are doing yourself and them a disservice by assuming the two are mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/15 "2002-07-24T03:36:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > **Yes, there would be fewer shootings if no one had guns.** Isn’t going to happen. Guns are too easy to get and/or make. It isn’t even theoretically possible to completely eliminate guns. Great Britain has tried to do that and has failed miserably. > [@](#): > > **We (in the U.S.) can’t do that.** No shit. > [@](#): > > **We could arm everybody, make it illegal to be in public while unarmed,** I wouldn’t go that far. I would advocate making it easier for the average person (no felonies, no history of mental problems) to carry concealed weapons, however, after taking a few training classes > [@](#): > > **and try to turn massacres into general gunfights,** Only a congenital idiot or an incurable sadist would advocate that. Stop being stupid. If people were generally armed, very few would be moronic enough to try and commit a violent crime. Those who did would be killed by trained civilians who take an active interest in their own safety. Simple as that. > [@](#): > > \*\*on the grounds that no one but an idiot breaks a Mexican standoff the hard way, but people have shown themselves to be such idiots that the only thing we can do is rant, and hopre for kevlar denim in Gap. \*\* No. Wrong. _Bzzzt_, you’ve just lost the door prize: A clue. What we can do is get more of the general public armed and able to defend them and those around them. If criminals thought that the average person was carrying and trained, criminals would think twice before strafing people. After all, can your car outrun a .45 Magnum bullet? Not unless it can outpace an aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/16 "2002-07-24T04:37:17Z")
Am I hostile? Of course I’m hostile. A child has just been murdered. Murdered by some jackass who thought it was appropriate to indiscriminately fire into a backyard party. Am I hostile toward gun owners? Of course not. Gun owners generally didn’t kill this little girl. An idiot with a gun did. I am hostile toward people who insist (and in my judgement falsely insist) that the Constitution, or some natural right or God knows what else prevents the law enforcement authorities from taking what seems to me a very modist step toward preventing this sort of outrage. In terms of going armed and going armed with intent, and a level of name calling that seems more than a little out of line even in this board, the only way you or anyone else can tell what I might be going to do with a gun is what I say I’m going to do or what I in fact do. Until I make manifest my intent to do something unlawful with a gun, there is no way for you to tell whether I am a so called responsible bearer of arms or a murderous Yahoo. That isn’t good enough. Some sense of decency and respect for civil order compels reasonable minds to the conclusion that there must be an acceptable method of regulating gun use. Until we do, we will continue rage at each other over the corpses of our children. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/17 "2002-07-24T04:59:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Some sense of decency and respect for civil order compels reasonable minds to the conclusion that there must be an acceptable method of regulating gun use. Until we do, we will continue rage at each other over the corpses of our children. Did anyone see a middle just get thrown out the window there? How about some emotions blatantly appealed to? Can anyone say _non sequitur_? You, **Spavined Gelding** , have the logical skills of a baboon. You have a few false assumptions: [ul] [li]That minimally restricted guns will always lead to innocents being killed.[/li][li]That having stringent gun regulation would prevent innocents from being killed, or at least reduce the instance of those crimes.[/li][/ul] You cannot see that there is a middle ground here: Widespread gun ownership without rampant homicide. That middle ground is where the US stands. It is not where Great Britain stands, however. In 1996-1997, 162,000 registered pistols and revolvers, the total number of registered handguns, were turned in to police. Today, the number of handguns in the hands of criminals is officially reckoned to be at _three million_. The Center for Defence Studies at King’s College looked at gun crime and concluded criminal use of handguns _increased 40 percent_ in the two years after the mass handgun confiscation. All of my facts are from the January 2002 issue of ‘America’s 1st Freedom.’ So, tell me again how strict gun laws prevent gun crime? ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/18 "2002-07-24T05:48:10Z")
First, murdered children are an emotional issue. That does not mean that there is not a rational answer to the issue. Registration of firearms strikes me as a rational response. Not banning. Not confiscation. Registration. It surely is not the ultimate answer but it is a rational step. Second, an armed populace with every idiot armed and ready to pull leather at the slightest provocation is a prescription for chaos. Just as soon as that happens the motto at every fender bender, for every imagined insult, will become “I’ll die before I back down.” Third, as long as the irrationally attached to fire arms control the political debate, with the help of the economically attached to fire arms, there will be no change and we will continue to see a resort to gun play in our towns and villages. Maybe things are different in Montana. Maybe not. Maybe, **Derleth** , you should sit down for a moment and think about what you have posted today. Forth, the confiscation of handguns in the UK doesn’t have much to do with our problem. Our criminals and our idiots appear to already be about as well armed as could be. I can’t imagine that registration would cause more of them to go get a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Jurhael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Jurhael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurhael)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/19 "2002-07-24T06:01:10Z")
The problem is, SP, is that strict gun laws only harm those who are law abiding. The criminals will simply STEAL the guns. Anyway, these are among the debates where despite my respect for the 2nd Ammendment, neither side really sways me. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442/20 "2002-07-24T10:03:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\* Am I hostile toward gun owners? Of course not. . \*\* Well, you did descibe them as obsessed and misinformed. And you were quite emphatic about it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spavined-gelding-come-here-please/120442.md?page=2)