# Speaking as one liberal to another, I urge you to vote against health care reform. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821 "2009-11-24T21:00:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/1 "2009-11-24T21:00:29Z")
The following is a letter that I’ll be sending to my Senators. I am posting it here for discussion purposes. > [@](#): > > Dear Senator Warner and Senator Webb, > > I am a Virginia voter who has been voting for Democratic candidates for many years. I supported both of you in your Senate campaigns and have also aided the campaigns of other Democratic politicians. I am one of the voters who has helped to turn Virginia blue during the past few years. As such, I wish to make my opinion about the health care reform bill known. I urge you to vote against the final bill unless drastic changes are made. > > During both the previous elections, Democratic voters made clear that our top domestic priority was to provide health insurance for all Americans. The current versions of the bills do not accomplish that; they leave millions of Americans uninsured. Upcoming negotiations in Congress may make the final version even worse. If we truly want to provide quality, affordable health care for all, we need a robust public option available to all Americans. A public option with a “trigger” or which allows states to opt out is not acceptable. These versions would leave too many Americans uninsured. > > Furthermore, the current versions of the health care bill make too many compromises with insurance and pharmaceutical industries. For example, they do not allow the government to negotiate lower prices on prescription drugs. This means that prices will remain inflated, the companies will continue to reap huge profits at our expense, and our health care system will remain on the path to insolvency. Current versions also don’t allow meaningful regulation of corporate health care providers. Hence, insurers would still be allowed to deny people coverage for basic medical needs. We’ve all heard the stories of people who had to fight their insurance companies for years over payments for important treatments. Some of these people were driven into bankruptcy. This sort of thing should not be allowed to continue. > > Lastly, the current versions do not restrict the growth of costs enough. Medicare is on a path to bankruptcy, which may occur as soon as 2016. Minor trimming of costs is not enough to save it. We need a much larger overhaul of the entire system. > > It may be objected that these compromises are necessary to get the support of moderate Democrats, and that we should support the bill anyway because any reform is better than none. But this reasoning is fallacious. The current bill provides only tiny improvements for the working poor while giving massive handouts to wealthy corporations. Not only is this immoral, but it sets a bad precedent. It tells corporations and lobbyists that they should automatically expect huge sums of money whenever the Democratic Congress writes a bill, and will thus hamstring any other legislation that we wish to pass. > > It may also be objected that defeat of health care reform would be a major victory for Republicans and would be costly for Democrats at the ballot box. The polls show the opposite. Most voters want a robust public option. They will punish the Republicans for blocking this round of health care reform, and the Democrats will emerge with a stronger majority in the next Congress, and will no longer be held hostage by Joe Lieberman and other back-stabbers. We cannot let the example of the 1994 election scare us into submission. It is no longer 1994, and the public mood on this issue has shifted. > > In conclusion, please stick to your principles and vote against any health care reform bill that does not actually address the problems with our current system. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/2 "2009-11-24T21:33:19Z")
You realize that the present system leaves 50 million uncovered , passes the health care cost into our products inhibiting our ability to compete and will bankrupt us as it sheds customers. We can not continue down this path either. The final bill is not determined. Insurance company competition has to be provided. Medicare is going broke because it is the insurer of last resort. As insurance companied drop sick or elderly, Medicare picks them up . They have the sickest demographic and are expected to control costs. Actually they do need a lot of control. they are letting medical companies and doctors cheat the tax payers on an ongoing basis. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/3 "2009-11-24T21:50:05Z")
The current direction, seems to me, is going to enrich the insurance companies, and to make them even MORE instrumental in health care decisions. This will especially be true if they drop the “public option.” The whole problem with health care in the US, seems to me, is the profit motive on the part of insurance companies, who make all ultimate decisions. This is compounded by the profit motive for hospitals, doctors, etc. Would we allow the police department to be run on a profit-basis? Then why the hell do we allow health care to be run that way? And, sadly, I don’t see this bill fixing it. The fix is to throw out and overhaul the whole damn system, not to spoon-feed the insurance companies. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/4 "2009-11-24T22:27:09Z")
I agree with you. I want UHC, but this bill is not the way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/5 "2009-11-24T22:34:22Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > The current direction, seems to me, is going to enrich the insurance companies, and to make them even MORE instrumental in health care decisions. This will especially be true if they drop the “public option.” > > The whole problem with health care in the US, seems to me, is the profit motive on the part of insurance companies, who make all ultimate decisions. This is compounded by the profit motive for hospitals, doctors, etc. No. The problem is we restrict competition and tie health insurance to employment. > [@](#): > > Would we allow the police department to be run on a profit-basis? Then why the hell do we allow health care to be run that way? And, sadly, I don’t see this bill fixing it. The fix is to throw out and overhaul the whole damn system, not to spoon-feed the insurance companies. Why is health care like the police? One might as well ask why we would allow grocery stores to operate on a profit basis. We all need to eat, right? Profit is not inherently bad. Unless you explain why you need to nationalize health care, just saying “profit” isn’t an argument for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/6 "2009-11-24T22:44:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why is health care like the police? One might as well ask why we would allow grocery stores to operate on a profit basis. We all need to eat, right? > > Profit is not inherently bad. Unless you explain why you need to nationalize health care, just saying “profit” isn’t an argument for doing so. The short answer is that some people think that the police, and health care, should be available to all. The market is great at some things, but not so much at ensuring that. Though the main reasons to socialize it have less to do with the fact that health care is privatized and more to do with the fact that the prevalence of insurance in paying for it throws the whole set of market dynamics out of whack, reducing most of the benefits that make a private market system good in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/7 "2009-11-24T23:20:48Z")
There’s two separate issues here: Health Insurance and Health Care. **Health Insurance** is insurance against unusual and expensive events. Heart attack, cancer, broken limb, etc. This type of insurance is actually quite reasonable. You can get a family plan with a $10k family deductible for around $200/mo. That means once your family has spent $10k in the year, the insurance will pick up the rest. Everyone should have this type of insurance because anyone can rack up $50k from an accident regardless of their health. **Health Care** is care for minor or regular health issues. Checkups, colds, sprains, etc. This is where it doesn’t make sense to provide it in a for-profit system. Profit itself is not even the issue. It’s the fact that there’s a whole system that has to be paid for to support these usual and expected medical expenses. Even if the insurance companies make zero profit, someone is still paying for the insurance companies buildings, employees, publications, utilities, etc. The problem is that health care cannot be ignored. If your car breaks down you can take the bus. But if your body has problems you can’t just hop into a different body. So you need to visit the doctor for normal health issues. But now that health care is bundled with health insurance, the cost of care has gone way up. Why does it cost $150 to have the doc look at you for 5 minutes? It’s because you don’t care about the cost. Your insurance says you only pay $10 for the visit, so you don’t do any price shopping. The docs know this, so they don’t try to compete with their rates. They’ll have a high rate and write off whatever the insurance company doesn’t reimburse. If you walk in without insurance, you’ll have to pay the full $150. And the receptionist will say “_Pay up front, if you don’t mind_.” But the _big_ problem with having health care and health insurance be run by for-profit companies is that they are more than happy to skyrocket your rates or drop you once you stop becoming profitable for them. And once they drop you, you can’t get back in. They seem to act surprised that you actually get sick. “How dare you get cancer! Shame on you.” Unless you are uber-rich, you’re not going to be able to afford any sort of major treatment without insurance. The only solution I can see is if all of America is in a single risk pool and we all pay the same premium. A giant group plan. And it would seem natural for the govt to run it. But I don’t think the current bill is the right way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/8 "2009-11-25T01:06:21Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I agree with you. I want UHC, but this bill is not the way to do it. This is an excellent example of the best being the enemy of the good. I too would like true UHC, but if we don’t pass some version of the bills out there now we aren’t going to get anything for another 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/9 "2009-11-25T01:34:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why is health care like the police? One might as well ask why we would allow grocery stores to operate on a profit basis. We all need to eat, right? You’ve never heard of food assistance programs? > [@](#): > > Profit is not inherently bad. Unless you explain why you need to nationalize health care, just saying “profit” isn’t an argument for doing so. The issue is whether or not the pursuit of profit degrades the general quality of healthcare provided. No one is saying someone who goes to the trouble and expense to become a doctor, nurse, or other medical professional shouldn’t be rewarded for their hard work and the service they provide with pay befitting the value of their service, but the question here is dog eat dog take any thing you can get your hands capitalism the best, or a more universal model? The sorry state of costs and limited access to healthcare in America compared to other industrialized nations says dog eat dog isn’t the best way. Doctors make us healthy, but other then add inefficiency (as measured in GPD spent on healthcare compared to results), what do insurance companies do? I personally favor the UK’s approach, Universal Healthcare, and private profit driven options if you so desire, and can pay. Their lowered costs and generally better health (a great feat considering the culinary blasphemy they call food) are a testament to that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/10 "2009-11-25T02:53:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > One might as well ask why we would allow grocery stores to operate on a profit basis. If there was as little competition in groceries as there is in health insurance, I would have no qualms against nationalizing all supermarkets. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/11 "2009-11-25T02:56:33Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > There’s two separate issues here: Health Insurance and Health Care… I loved your post and agree 100% with everything you said. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/12 "2009-11-25T05:04:45Z")
I sympathize with the OP’s dilemma, but come down barely on the other side. Barely. It became obvious to me back when the first committee meetings started up, and nobody was asked to present the case for a single-payer plan. Its not that single-payer plans were discussed and rejected, its that single payer wasn’t on the table. Actually, it wasn’t even in the room, single payer was denied entrance to the building by the security guards… And I don’t think we correctly estimated the resistance, thinking there would be some resistance, some bargaining, give a little, get a little, the business as usual. Didn’t expect the insurance industry to go batshit pizza, screaming, tearing their hair and daubing themselves with shit. Way it looks, we’re likely to get a whole lot of not much. But we should pass something anyway, its a cold blooded _realpolitik_ assessment. We get something, anything, and start in _immediately_ working towards more. Lean on the resistance, keep up the pressure. If the tighty-righties had been willing to bend, make a bunch of folks happier, they wouldn’t have those folks as their enemy. Do now. Or maybe if they hadn’t been so public about their screaming shit fits, they might have been able to blame the Dems for not trying hard enough. Tough sell to begin with, blaming the other guy for not making you do something. Made a lot tougher by the bombastic and public displays of over-my-dead-penis obstructionism. We weren’t going to win this in one swell foop, wasn’t realistic to expect that we might. But they can’t spend money like that all the time, they can’t keep up hysteria forever. Demand, negotiate, accept, nail down, resume demanding. Repeat as necessary. Democracy is a bitch, but I love her. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/13 "2009-11-25T05:05:23Z")
For my part I will not be completely satisfied with anything short of single-payer. However, I don’t know about the Senate bill, but [the bill the House approved](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Health_Care_for_America_Act) – > [@](#): > > The central changes made by the legislation include: > > - prohibiting health insurers from refusing coverage based on patients’ medical histories[2][3] > > - prohibiting health insurers from charging different rates based on patients’ medical histories or gender[2][3] > > - repeal of insurance companies’ exemption from anti-trust laws[3][4] > > - establishing minimum standards for qualified health benefit plans[2] > > - requiring most employers to provide coverage for their workers or pay a surtax on the worker’s wages up to 8%[2][5] > > - restrictions on abortion coverage in any insurance plans for which federal funds are used[3][5] > > - an expansion of Medicaid to include more low-income Americans by increasing Medicaid eligibility limits to 150% of the Federal Poverty Level and by covering adults without dependents so as long as either or any segment doesn’t fall under the narrow exceptions outlined by various clauses throughout the proposal.[6][7] > > - a subsidy to low- and middle-income Americans to help buy insurance[5] > > - a central health insurance exchange where the public can compare policies and rates[5] > > - a government-run insurance plan (public option);[5] according to some analyses, the plan would be prohibited from covering abortions[8] > > - requiring most Americans to carry or obtain qualifying health insurance coverage or possibly face a surtax for non-compliance. [2][9] > > - a 5.4% surtax on individuals whose adjusted gross income exceeds $500,000 ($1 million for married couples filing joint returns)[2] > > - a 2.5% excise tax on medical devices[2] > > - reductions in projected spending on Medicare of $400 billion over a ten-year period[3] > > - inclusion of language originally proposed in the Tax Equity for Domestic Partner and Health Plan Beneficiaries Act[10][11] > > - inclusion of language originally proposed in the Indian Health Care Improvement Act Amendments of 2009.[12][13] – would at any rate be a vast improvement over what we’ve got now. Half a loaf, y’know? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/14 "2009-11-25T13:16:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > This is an excellent example of the best being the enemy of the good. I too would like true UHC, but if we don’t pass some version of the bills out there now we aren’t going to get anything for another 20 years. Exactly. It would be incredibly unrealistic to think that something so major could be perfect right out of the box. The system is going to need maintenance and adjustments over the years, sure - but that is no reason at all not to get going. It’s been long enough, and there’s no better time than now. If we don’t get the program established, we can’t make the improvements. Politics is the art of the _doable_. And we aren’t ever going to get single-payer. That was never a realistic option. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/15 "2009-11-25T13:27:10Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You’ve never heard of food assistance programs? Do those food assistance programs nationalize grocery stores? No. And so that has nothing to do with the post you responded to. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/16 "2009-11-25T13:36:55Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > There’s two separate issues here: Health Insurance and Health Care. > > **Health Insurance** is insurance against unusual and expensive events. Heart attack, cancer, broken limb, etc. This type of insurance is actually quite reasonable. You can get a family plan with a $10k family deductible for around $200/mo. That means once your family has spent $10k in the year, the insurance will pick up the rest. Everyone should have this type of insurance because anyone can rack up $50k from an accident regardless of their health. > > **Health Care** is care for minor or regular health issues. Checkups, colds, sprains, etc. This is where it doesn’t make sense to provide it in a for-profit system. Profit itself is not even the issue. It’s the fact that there’s a whole system that has to be paid for to support these usual and expected medical expenses. Even if the insurance companies make zero profit, someone is still paying for the insurance companies buildings, employees, publications, utilities, etc. > > The problem is that health care cannot be ignored. If your car breaks down you can take the bus. But if your body has problems you can’t just hop into a different body. So you need to visit the doctor for normal health issues. But now that health care is bundled with health insurance, the cost of care has gone way up. Why does it cost $150 to have the doc look at you for 5 minutes? It’s because you don’t care about the cost. Your insurance says you only pay $10 for the visit, so you don’t do any price shopping. The docs know this, so they don’t try to compete with their rates. They’ll have a high rate and write off whatever the insurance company doesn’t reimburse. If you walk in without insurance, you’ll have to pay the full $150. And the receptionist will say “_Pay up front, if you don’t mind_.” > > But the _big_ problem with having health care and health insurance be run by for-profit companies is that they are more than happy to skyrocket your rates or drop you once you stop becoming profitable for them. And once they drop you, you can’t get back in. They seem to act surprised that you actually get sick. “How dare you get cancer! Shame on you.” Unless you are uber-rich, you’re not going to be able to afford any sort of major treatment without insurance. > > The only solution I can see is if all of America is in a single risk pool and we all pay the same premium. A giant group plan. And it would seem natural for the govt to run it. But I don’t think the current bill is the right way to do it. Agreed. Just like home owners insurance only covers things like your home burning down and doesn’t pay to replace a burnt out light bulb. And I think that’s why the high deductible policies coupled with the tax deductible HSAs were a great start, but that made way too much sense. Actually, the largest reason why such a policy won’t/didn’t succeed is that you still have too many people, especially the elderly and poor on traditional government medical programs that don’t promote any type of competition. Just look at an itemized hospital statement or physician statement and tell me if such prices would continue in a pure competitive market with consumers making informed choices. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/17 "2009-11-25T13:58:56Z")
Whether or not the bills are a good idea objectively, it would seem to me that any great undertaking, be it a war or major domestic legislation, needs public support. This bill doesn’t have it. For that alone, it should not be passed until the Democrats can bring the public on board. As for its objective merits, it’s just not paid for. The CBO score assumes cuts that are not likely to happen. For example, part of the savings is supposed to come from reducing provider payments, but Congress has been avoiding cutting provider payments for years. I want everyone to have access to affordable health care, but nothing is worth exploding the deficit. If the debt has to be inflated away, or the unthinkable happens and we default, we’ll have more uninsured then than we do now. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/18 "2009-11-25T14:12:13Z")
The CBO scoring shows this bill REDUCING the deficit by $130 million annually. Cite for health care not having public support? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/19 "2009-11-25T14:38:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The CBO scoring shows this bill REDUCING the deficit by $130 million annually. > > Cite for health care not having public support? Does this one count? [http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gSXIViw\_RWvU3uweKkhKfhAVGgqgD9C5MHO04](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gSXIViw_RWvU3uweKkhKfhAVGgqgD9C5MHO04) So most folks don’t expect it to affect them, and those who think it’ll make 'em worse off outnumber those who think it’ll improve their lot (both as a matter of finances and access to care) – and while they’re split on whether it’ll improve or worsen medical care around the country, those who think it’ll be worse for the country’s _ **finances** _ outnumber those who think it’ll be an improvement. People want change. Do they want _ **this** _ change? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821/20 "2009-11-25T14:42:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The CBO scoring shows this bill REDUCING the deficit by $130 million annually. > > Cite for health care not having public support? It has, but [the picture is complicated:](http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/archives/185853.asp) > [@](#): > > Among those who have opinions, 41 percent of Americans support the House bill - a very different plan may pass the Senate - while 39 percent oppose it. Democrats (62 percent) and Independents (48 percent) give at least qualified approval, while 70 percent of Republicans give it thumbs down. > > A slim majority, 51 percent of those surveyed, fear that the House bill could increase the cost of health care in America: Just 15 percent think prices will go down, although a major goal of the bill is to give health insurers some competition. > > On individual issues, however, the public is pro-reform. A sampling: > > - 89 percent would forbid insurance companies from cutting off coverage after a person becomes sick; > > - 77 percent support providing subsidies so that low and middle-income American can buy insurance. > > - 83 percent would prohibit health insurance companies from refusing coverage based on a patient’s medical history. > > - 80 percent would prohibit health insurers from charging different rates based on a patient’s gender. > > - 84 percent would limit how much people can be charged for out-of-pocket expenses. > > Just over half of those surveyed - 52 percent - support the so-called public option, a government-run insurance plan that would provide an alternative to private insurance plans. > > A slightly higher majority - 54 percent - approve of the House vote to prohibit use of federal money for insurance that covers elective abortions. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-as-one-liberal-to-another-i-urge-you-to-vote-against-health-care-reform/518821.md?page=2)