# Speaking Elvish for Pentecost **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 17, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235 "2012-05-17T18:14:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/41 "2012-05-19T00:02:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It goes further than that, even. People with different languages were all hearing the _same speech_, each in their own language. Which is of course impossible absent a miracle . . . Jesus made 5,000 loaves and 5,000 babelfishes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/42 "2012-05-19T00:03:33Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > If I could talk about reading a different Scripture, I once read, in church, the second chapter of Luke. And it was in the King James Version. > > On my deathbed I’m going to regret that, when I finished reading I used the standard phrase “Here ends the lesson”. I resisted the temptation to look out at the congregation and say “And that’s what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown” To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women – that is the true meanng of Christmas! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/43 "2012-05-19T02:22:04Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > While when Episcopalians speak in tongues they ask for tea in Received Pronunciation. How do they do it at the Holy Ghost Big Bang Theory Pentecostal Fire and Brimstone Mission Temple Fireworks Stand? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/44 "2012-05-20T01:51:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How do they do it at the Holy Ghost Big Bang Theory Pentecostal Fire and Brimstone Mission Temple Fireworks Stand? I know you’re joking, but I’ll answer seriously. Pentecostals believe in both glossalia AND the unlearned language thing. They are “different gifts.” The theology is not based on the event in Acts 2, but other scriptures about speaking in tongues that speak of people not understanding or the language of angels. Or even “groans that words cannot express.” I grew up in it. My dad was said to once speak legitimate Spanish. Call it legitimate, random, or someone hearing what they wanted to hear (like in backmasking)–I really don’t know, I wasn’t there. And there’s no recording or transcript as they hadn’t thought of doing that yet. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/45 "2012-05-20T01:54:00Z")
Unrelated to previous post: Is anyone playing PEter who speaks up over everyone? (I was always taught in Greek) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/46 "2012-05-20T02:00:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Unrelated to previous post: Is anyone playing PEter who speaks up over everyone? (I was always taught in Greek) No, that’s not how we do it. But there’s no reason it couldn’t be done that way. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/47 "2012-05-26T20:37:17Z")
So is everyone ready for tomorrow?😛 I got my passage transcribed into Roman script, the better to be able to read quickly. Not doing the usual Acts passage this year. It’s John 7:37-39. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/48 "2012-05-26T21:01:08Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > But the different words meaning Peter are not the words meaning stone in each language, and there are many languages (English among them) where the name derives from the name in another language and not from the word meaning stone; in the different versions of the Bible I’m familiar with, Peter is only called Stone in the story about where he got his nick. Huh? Isn’t “Peter” from the same root as “petrified”, meaning “turned to stone”? Or does the word “petrified” derive from the name “Peter”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/49 "2012-05-26T21:07:04Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Huh? Isn’t “Peter” from the same root as “petrified”, meaning “turned to stone”? Or does the word “petrified” derive from the name “Peter”? The former. Anyway, if Jesus gave Simon a nickname, it would have been the **Aramaic** work for “rock.” Jesus probably knew neither Latin nor Greek, and would have had no reason to use either among his friends/disciples. And the original Gospels would have used the Greek word. But the Western world (that is, Italy and points north and west of it) would have learned these stories from the [Vulgate,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate) that is, St. Jerome’s translation of the Bible from Greek into Latin. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/50 "2012-05-26T21:48:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The former. Anyway, if Jesus gave Simon a nickname, it would have been the **Aramaic** work for “rock.” Jesus probably knew neither Latin nor Greek, and would have had no reason to use either among his friends/disciples. And the original Gospels would have used the Greek word. But the Western world (that is, Italy and points north and west of it) would have learned these stories from the [Vulgate,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate) that is, St. Jerome’s translation of the Bible from Greek into Latin. In general, I agree with you and **nava** , I think, and I’m certainly more given to the historical-critical approach than the devotional approach. I’m not certain whom I’m disagreeing with and whom I’m agreeing with when I state that the reference to “Peter” as “stone” in the Gospels is partly a result of translation, but I think that we’re given to exaggerate the difference because “Peter” and “stone” in English, while in other languages, with more of a history steeped in Christianity than English, “Peter” and “stone” are more closely linked. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/51 "2012-05-26T22:42:30Z")
I just came out of 4:30 Mass and our first reading was about the Tower of Babel. Fitting! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/52 "2012-05-27T11:58:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Jesus made 5,000 loaves and 5,000 babelfishes. If they had been Babelfishes nobody would have understood a sentence. The general feeling would have been one of “the words are in my language but the speech makes no sense at all”, rather than one of understanding. > [@appleciders](#): > > In general, I agree with you and **nava** , I think, and I’m certainly more given to the historical-critical approach than the devotional approach. I’m not certain whom I’m disagreeing with and whom I’m agreeing with when I state that the reference to “Peter” as “stone” in the Gospels is partly a result of translation, but I think that we’re given to exaggerate the difference because “Peter” and “stone” in English, while in other languages, with more of a history steeped in Christianity than English, “Peter” and “stone” are more closely linked. Methinks you’re confusing “a history steeped in Christianity” and “a Romance language”. In Spanish, stone is _piedra_ and Peter is _Pedro_, but that’s because they’re both derived from Latin (rock is _roca_, which I guess is germanic but RAE doesn’t say). The Catalan versions are _pedra, Pedro_ and _roca_. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/53 "2012-05-27T12:20:22Z")
[Wiki sez:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_(given_name)) > [@](#): > > Peter is a common masculine given name. It is derived, via Latin “petra”, from the Greek word πέτρος (petros) meaning “stone” or “rock”.[1] > > According to the New Testament, Jesus gave Saint Peter (whose given name was Simon) the name Kephas or Cephas meaning “stone” in Aramaic.[2] Same root as “petroleum.” St. Peter, pray for us! Hold down gas prices! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/54 "2012-05-27T23:54:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > But the different words meaning Peter are not the words meaning stone in each language, and there are many languages (English among them) where the name derives from the name in another language and not from the word meaning stone; in the different versions of the Bible I’m familiar with, Peter is only called Stone in the story about where he got his nick. Other than French, of course, where “Pierre” literally means stone or rock. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/55 "2012-05-28T00:32:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **BrainGlutton** : > > The former. Anyway, if Jesus gave Simon a nickname, it would have been the Aramaic work for “rock.” Yes, “Cephus” is what Jesus called him. I was also a lector this morning, but we Catholics are boring. We just recounted the story of the speaking in tongues, but did so in plain English. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/56 "2012-05-28T00:46:27Z")
Hey, count your blesings, you still got some people alive who pine for it to be done in badly mispronopunced Latin ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/57 "2012-05-28T01:11:49Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Hey, count your blesings, you still got some people alive who pine for it to be done in badly mispronopunced Latin The Latin at our Pentecost mass yesterday was pronounced faultlessly. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/58 "2012-05-28T12:44:03Z")
Can someone explain to me, the weird fundamentalist belief that the apostles all of a sudden started spouting gibberish? The whole phenomenon of “glossolalia” puzzles me-what use is a message that nobody understands? In any case, the gospel account of Pentacost is very clear-every man understood the words, “as if they had been spoken in each man’s language”. No gibberish at all!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/59 "2012-05-28T13:06:15Z")
There is no explanation that I know of for the “gibberish” as you call it. It’s just as you said, what people heard was their own languages. So a dozen different people could have heard on the the apostles speaking, and they each would have heard something different. When we do the different languages thing at Pentecost it’s an attempt to imitate that. In 1 Corinthians 12:10, when speaking of spiritual gifts, it says some have the gift of language and some of interpreting language. So I think that those who “speak in tongues” that we can’t understand, may, according to some beliefs, be inspired by the Spirit and someone should be able to know what they are talking about. Confusing enough?😛 I had a good time yesterday, when I spoke the Pentecost passages in Korean. As far as I know there were no actual native speakers of it in church, and that may be a good thing, I’m sure my delivery would have been laughed at. I wished we could have had a speaker of an African language, we had European and Asian though. I did hear a local Lutheran church is in the process of calling a pastor who is from Madagascar though, a pity we couldn’t have grabbed him for the one morning. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235/60 "2012-05-28T14:42:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Methinks you’re confusing “a history steeped in Christianity” and “a Romance language”. In Spanish, stone is _piedra_ and Peter is _Pedro_, but that’s because they’re both derived from Latin (rock is _roca_, which I guess is germanic but RAE doesn’t say). The Catalan versions are _pedra, Pedro_ and _roca_. I was noooot having a good day yesterday… the Catalan for Peter is _Pere_. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Other than French, of course, where “Pierre” literally means stone or rock. Oui, mais this is a case of parallel evolution, although from the same word to almost-identical words. The two versions have different genders as well as different capitalization. > [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, “Cephus” is what Jesus called him. > > I was also a lector this morning, but we Catholics are boring. We just recounted the story of the speaking in tongues, but did so in plain English. Wasn’t it Cephas? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-elvish-for-pentecost/622235.md?page=4)