# Speaking of engines and noble gasses **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 1, 2000, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-engines-and-noble-gasses/31600 "2000-09-01T04:01:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-engines-and-noble-gasses/31600/1 "2000-09-01T04:01:27Z")
What about the Papp engine, aka the gas plasma engine, aka the noble gas engine? From what I’ve heard, you basically take a normal piston engine, seal off the cylinders, and fill them with a specific mixture of noble gasses. When an electric spark is introduced to the mixture, it expands rapidly, creating an enormous amount of emissions free power. I read somewhere about 300hp from a 1.2l Volvo motor in tests during the mid 60’s. All the sites I’ve been able to find are generally of the “we’ll sell you plans for 20 bucks” variety," which is stupid, cuz I just happen to work at the local GPO depository library and can get the patent plans easily. Anybody know if it’s worth the trouble? I think I originally read about this in a Subgenius book, which might mean that it’s all bunk. bBut boy, would I like to turn the Vega rusting in my neighbor’s back yard into a screamin mean eco-friendly hot rod. This query was the original reason I joined the boards. I’ve held off, hoping the folks at SD-HQ would condescend to answer my question in a mailbag or (ye gods) _real column_, but hell, I’m sick of waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-engines-and-noble-gasses/31600/2 "2000-09-01T04:14:10Z")
Disclaimer: I know nothing about the engine of which you speak and have never seen the plans. **BUT** , offhand, it sounds pretty ludicrous. Noble gases are nobel for a reason - they don’t react except under extreme conditions. The reason they don’t react is because they are very stable. In other words, they are at a low energy state. To get energy from a reaction, you have to get your chemicals from a higher energy state to a lower energy state, releasing energy in the process. As I said, noble gases are already in very low energy states. To get them to release reasonable amounts of energy, you’d have to get them to energy states that are far lower. I can’t think of any other state that would be significantly lower. Most chemical reactions end when chemicals reach states that are similar to noble gases. It makes much more sense to use chemicals that are have more energy, like, oh, say, gasoline. Especially when you consider that noble gases are hardly cheap. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-engines-and-noble-gasses/31600/3 "2000-09-01T04:33:40Z")
> [@](#): > > The reason they don’t react is because they are very stable. In other words, they are at a low energy state. > To get energy from a reaction, you have to get your chemicals from a higher energy state to a lower energy state, releasing energy in the process. As I said, noble gases are already in very low energy states. To get them to release reasonable amounts of energy… > &c Perhaps I should clarify: Apparently, the noble gases have this property whereby they undergo a rapid transformation to a plasmic state (coupled with expansion) when shot with electricity, and then just as rapidly return to gaseous form when the charge is removed. There is no chemical reaction taking place… just a change of state/pressure. Noble gases are used for flourescent and neon lights, because they glow when juiced with electricity. That’s not a chemical reaction, either. So, to all you chemically inclined gearheads, or automobile inclined chemists, is the concept sound? ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-engines-and-noble-gasses/31600/4 "2000-09-01T04:55:23Z")
ta-da. from the US PTO Database [http://patents.uspto.gov](http://patents.uspto.gov) > [@](#): > > [Patent # 4,428,193](http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='4,428,193'.WKU.&OS=PN/4,428,193&RS=PN/4,428,193) > > Inert gas fuel, fuel preparation apparatus and system for extracting useful work from the fuel > > ``` > Abstract > > ``` > > An inert gas fuel consisting essentially of a precise, homogeneous mixture of helium, neon, argon, krypton and xenon. Apparatus for preparing the fuel includes a mixing chamber, tubing to allow movement of each inert gas into and through the various stages of the apparatus, a plurality of electric coils for producing magnetic fields, an ion gauge, ionizers, cathode ray tubes, filters, a polarizer and a high frequency generator. An engine for extracting useful work from the fuel has at least two closed cylinders for fuel, each cylinder being defined by a head and a piston. A plurality of electrodes extend into each chamber, some containing low level radioactive material. The head has a generally concave depression facing a generally semi-toroidal depression in the surface of the piston. The piston is axially movable with respect to the head from a first position to a second position and back, which linear motion is converted to rotary motion by a crankshaft. The engine’s electrical system includes coils and condensers > which circle each cylinder, an electric generator, and circuitry for controlling the flow of current within the system… > > _&c see the link_ ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-engines-and-noble-gasses/31600/5 "2000-09-01T05:31:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Apparently, the noble gases have this property whereby they undergo a rapid transformation to a plasmic state (coupled with expansion) when shot with electricity, and then just as rapidly return to gaseous form when the charge is removed. There is no chemical reaction taking place… just a change of state/pressure. If you could create this plasma with electricity, any energy you get out of it would be equal to the energy you put into it via the electricty. The final energy state of the gas must be lower (more stable) than the starting energy state for any useful work to be extracted. You can put the gas through all sorts of imtermediate state, they don’t mean a thing. The difference in energy of the starting and ending states is what is crutial. > [@](#): > > Noble gases are used for flourescent and neon lights, because they glow when juiced with electricity. That’s not a chemical reaction, either. I’m not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that it is possible to use noble gases as a method of changing energy form (electical to light in this case), then you are correct. If you are using this as an example of getting “free” energy from a noble gas, then you are mistaken. I suspect you only meant the former. > [@](#): > > So, to all you chemically inclined gearheads, or automobile inclined chemists, is the concept sound? I would have to say no on this one. “There is no such thing as a free lunch,” a paraphrase of the first law of thermodynamics. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-engines-and-noble-gasses/31600/6 "2000-09-01T06:01:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by black455 \* > > Perhaps I should clarify: > > Apparently, the noble gases have this property whereby they undergo a rapid transformation to a plasmic state (coupled with expansion) when shot with electricity, and then just as rapidly return to gaseous form when the charge is removed. There is no chemical reaction taking place… just a change of state/pressure. I’m not a chemist or physicist, so I await correction if necessary. But if you shoot electricity or high frequency radio waves through any gas, it’ll expand because it’s being heated by the electricity/radio waves. Never heard of any expansion other than heat-caused. And as Dr. Lao said, the energy you get out of this engine will be equal to or less than the energy you put in. I believe you could build an engine based on heating like this, so this engine could work, but the efficiency won’t be unusually high. > [@](#): > > Noble gases are used for flourescent and neon lights, because they glow when juiced with electricity. That’s not a chemical reaction, either. True, but what does that have to do with whether this engine performs as advertised? As far as I know, any gas will glow under similar conditions. I believe mercury vapor is used in most (if not all) fluorescent lights. It emits ultraviolet which causes the phosphors to fluoresce (glow). And as far as the patent goes, just being patented is not a guarantee something works. Occasionally so-called “perpetual motion machines” get patented. Apparently some of the folks in the patent office can be a bit clueless. > [@](#): > > So, to all you chemically inclined gearheads, or automobile inclined chemists, is the concept sound? \*\* Sounds like complete crap, designed to confuse unsuspecting folks with pseudoscientific jargon and separate them from their money.