# Speaking of grammatical gender...how do they decide the gender of new words? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 25, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-grammatical-gender-how-do-they-decide-the-gender-of-new-words/511537 "2009-09-25T16:48:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-grammatical-gender-how-do-they-decide-the-gender-of-new-words/511537/21 "2009-09-27T21:18:46Z")
My French speaking friend finally gave me the three French words that change gender with number. And damned if I didn’t forget one of them. The other two are “oeuvre” (work) and “orgue” (organ, as in the musical instrument). ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-grammatical-gender-how-do-they-decide-the-gender-of-new-words/511537/22 "2009-09-28T02:53:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You recall incorrectly. Un grand avion, des grands avions. I can’t think of any word that’d change gender from singular to plural, although as \*\*Hypnagogic \*\*says, some (rare) words can have different genders depending on context. In German, it’s ‘der See’ when you’re talking about a lake, but ‘die See’ when you’re talking about a sea or an ocean. Der Bodensee, die Ostsee. Still, I am going to go out on a limb and say that there’s no examples of words that change gender while retaining meaning, only based on number. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-grammatical-gender-how-do-they-decide-the-gender-of-new-words/511537/23 "2009-09-28T05:23:49Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > My French speaking friend finally gave me the three French words that change gender with number. And damned if I didn’t forget one of them. The other two are “oeuvre” (work) and “orgue” (organ, as in the musical instrument). I suspect it may be not a case of changing the gender but merely the article, to avoid cacophony. It’s what happens with Spanish female words whose first letter is an A, in the singular form they take male articles but the word itself remains female. My guess is that the gender gets determined by the person inventing the word (amazing, innit?). By the time the academies hear it, it’s already been circulating and already has a gender. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-grammatical-gender-how-do-they-decide-the-gender-of-new-words/511537/24 "2009-09-28T15:26:51Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I suspect it may be not a case of changing the gender but merely the article, to avoid cacophony. It’s what happens with Spanish female words whose first letter is an A, in the singular form they take male articles but the word itself remains female. > > My guess is that the gender gets determined by the person inventing the word (amazing, innit?). By the time the academies hear it, it’s already been circulating and already has a gender. Les orgues would be pronounced the same way whether it was masculine or not. French does change the article occasionally to avoid bad sounds. I will note that the definitive article l’ is used with words that start with “h,” as it is usually silent. There are a few exceptions, like “la haine” (hate). French countries that end in “e” are usually feminine, while if they end in anything else they are masculine, except for the few plural countries like les Pays-Bas. There are a few exceptions; the following are masculine: le Camboge, le Mexique, le Zimbabwe, le Mozambique, le Belize. By the way, le Mexico is the capital of le Mexique. Un mexiquense can be un mexicain, but the converse is not necessarily true. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-grammatical-gender-how-do-they-decide-the-gender-of-new-words/511537/25 "2009-09-28T16:55:08Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Les orgues would be pronounced the same way whether it was masculine or not. French does change the article occasionally to avoid bad sounds. I will note that the definitive article l’ is used with words that start with “h,” as it is usually silent. There are a few exceptions, like “la haine” (hate). The ‘h’ in “haine” is called an _aspirated h_, and I remember hearing that it’s often found in words of Germanic origin. It’s still theoretically a mute letter, but some people do pronounce it. Quite a few words start with an aspirated h, [here’s a list on Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_h). > [@](#): > > By the way, le Mexico is the capital of le Mexique. Un mexiquense can be un mexicain, but the converse is not necessarily true. Mexico, not “le Mexico”. Cities don’t take the article. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-grammatical-gender-how-do-they-decide-the-gender-of-new-words/511537/26 "2009-09-28T17:38:47Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > In German, it’s ‘der See’ when you’re talking about a lake, but ‘die See’ when you’re talking about a sea or an ocean. Der Bodensee, die Ostsee. Still, I am going to go out on a limb and say that there’s no examples of words that change gender while retaining meaning, only based on number. I think this is because in Low German/ Dutch, it’s the opposite to High German: the ocean is called “See” instead of Meer (hence North sea and East sea), lakes inland are called Meer instead of See (Steinhuder Meer). I’m not a linguist, but maybe the two terms got mixed, and now we have “Der See” = male lake, and “Die See” = female ocean both at once. We also have words that switch genders in different dialects: Die (female) Butter in High German, but Der (male) Butter in Bavarian. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-grammatical-gender-how-do-they-decide-the-gender-of-new-words/511537/27 "2009-09-28T17:48:01Z")
[QUOTE=thelurkinghorror] Les orgues would be pronounced the same way whether it was masculine or not. French does change the article occasionally to avoid bad sounds. I will note that the definitive article l’ is used with words that start with “h,” as it is usually silent. There are a few exceptions, like “la haine” (hate). [/QUOTE] True, however the gender still matters when there’s an adjective linked to the word : un grand orgue, des grandes orgues. > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > The ‘h’ in “haine” is called an _aspirated h_, and I remember hearing that it’s often found in words of Germanic origin. It’s still theoretically a mute letter, but some people do pronounce it. Quite a few words start with an aspirated h, [here’s a list on Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_h). It’s mute, but still has an effect on pronounciation and grammar. You’re not supposed to pronounce the liaison between article and word (for example, “les haines” is pronounced something like “ley hen” rather than “ley zen”, whereas “les avions” should be pronounced “ley zahveeun”). Finally, as noted, there’s never an elision of the article when the following word starts with an aspirated h, e.g. : le haricot, never l’haricot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speaking-of-grammatical-gender-how-do-they-decide-the-gender-of-new-words/511537.md?page=1)