# Special Counsel Robert Mueller testifies before Congress **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 24, 2019, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542 "2019-07-24T12:33:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/121 "2019-07-24T19:30:20Z")
All done. Let the dueling punditry commence. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/122 "2019-07-24T19:32:35Z")
Umm, did I hear Mueller respond to the question about whether Trump answered his written responses truthfully by saying that he did not? Isn’t that a crime? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/123 "2019-07-24T19:36:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Then why take on the job if he is so ambivalent? Either he is getting some sort of personal satisfaction from this (unlikely given his objections to Barr’s mis-characterizations), or there is more to this than meets the eye, maybe with respect to the 14 separate ongoing investigation that were referred by his office. Perhaps to avoid the appearance of influencing them in some way? > > I don’t know. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. But he’s not making it easy. I expect he took the job of special counsel out of a sense of duty to the country, but I also expect he feels a need to be seen as apolitical. So he went out of his way to write the report as non-partisan as possible, and now he’s trying to stay entirely within the bounds of the report. I think he’s much too married to this old-school view of being “above politics”, or something like that, but there’s nothing we can do about it. I’m not sure if a more political actor would have been a better choice – they would have been far more likely to either act to exonerate Trump, or go far enough in trying to pursue Trump’s wrongdoing that Trump would have had them fired. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/124 "2019-07-24T19:38:12Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Umm, did I hear Mueller respond to the question about whether Trump answered his written responses truthfully by saying that he did not? > > Isn’t that a crime? Lying under oath is what got Bill Clinton impeached. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/125 "2019-07-24T19:55:13Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > lying under oath is what got bill clinton impeached. iowrdi ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/126 "2019-07-24T19:58:45Z")
Sometimes I feel like I’m the only person who’s been paying attention during the past 3 years. I’ve been hearing non-stop from everyone how Muller was going to bring Trump down any day now, and I maintained the entire time that it would amount to nothing, and nobody believed me. I said, “Trump’s ONLY TALENT is avoiding consequences.” They all said, “nah, this guy Muller, he’s very thorough, he’s a real badass, he’s gonna bring it all toppling down.” Actually, they all said “Trump isn’t even going to run, come on, you know that means he’d have to disclose his taxes.” I said, “he doesn’t give a fuck, he’s not gonna play by the rules,” and surely enough he didn’t. Then they all said “the GOP will freeze him out, he’ll never get the nomination, not a chance in hell” and…“Hillary will mop the floor with him”. What people don’t understand is that attempting to find loopholes to make this nightmare disappear is never going to work, and only makes his detractors look incompetent. Trying to impeach him will just be setting up for failure, and it will have the same result. The only way to beat him is to beat him. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/127 "2019-07-24T20:13:25Z")
I do understand that Mueller wants to avoid appearing partisan - but he has neutered himself. I don’t understand how someone who successfully prosecuted Trump’s underlings could now go to such lengths to avoid calling Trump out - for refusing to testify, for obstruction… There must have been a better way to approach this. How about making a stand for the rule of law? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/128 "2019-07-24T20:22:16Z")
What Lamoral said. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/129 "2019-07-24T20:49:03Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Umm, did I hear Mueller respond to the question about whether Trump answered his written responses truthfully by saying that he did not? > > Isn’t that a crime? Haven’t watched or read a transcript from this week, but I have heard that Mr. Mueller’s position (shared by Mr. Trump’s DOJ) is that the President is quite literally immune from criminal prosecution. That means it is impossible for the President to be convicted of a crime, unless he is actually impeached and convicted by Congress. Couple this with the presumption of innocence and the answer to your question must be a very legalese ‘not unless he is impeached and convicted’. He can be impeached and convicted by Congress for “Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors”. It’s up to the Congress to decide what that means. This was somewhat elaborated in one of the Federalists… for the founder’s views on this subject… Here it is, [Federalist 65](https://www.congress.gov/resources/display/content/The+Federalist+Papers#TheFederalistPapers-65): > [@Publius/Hamilton](#): > > A well-constituted court for the trial of impeachments is an object not more to be desired than difficult to be obtained in a government wholly elective. > > ```auto > > The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself. > > ``` > > The prosecution of them, for this reason, will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties more or less friendly or inimical to the accused. In many cases it will connect itself with the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other; and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt. > > The delicacy and magnitude of a trust which so deeply concerns the political reputation and existence of every man engaged in the administration of public affairs, speak for themselves. The difficulty of placing it rightly, in a government resting entirely on the basis of periodical elections, will as readily be perceived, when it is considered that the most conspicuous characters in it will, from that circumstance, be too often the leaders or the tools of the most cunning or the most numerous faction, and on this account, can hardly be expected to possess the requisite neutrality towards those whose conduct may be the subject of scrutiny. > > The convention, it appears, thought the Senate the most fit depositary of this important trust. Those who can best discern the intrinsic difficulty of the thing, will be least hasty in condemning that opinion, and will be most inclined to allow due weight to the arguments which may be supposed to have produced it. > > … > > …The punishment which may be the consequence of conviction upon impeachment, is not to terminate the chastisement of the offender. After having been sentenced to a perpetual ostracism from the esteem and confidence, and honors and emoluments of his country, he will still be liable to prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law… Perjury has been held to be an impeachable offense in the past when Judge Walter Nixon was removed from office in 1989. Contrary to the opinion of some, the official verdict in President Clinton’s trial was “not guilty”, not a Senatorial jury nullification. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/130 "2019-07-24T20:57:01Z")
“So, why did the United States collapse? I’m still having a hard time with this one, professor.” “Well, you see, somebody wrote a memo. And that memo apparently had the force of law. And that memo prevented anybody from removing a President who committed crimes, even though the US was founded on the principle that no one was above the law. Which they weren’t until someone wrote a memo.” “WHAT?” “Yes. A fucking _memo_ is all it took.” “But… I mean… couldn’t somebody just have written another memo?” “You’d think. But everyone acted as if this memo was some fiat handed down by God, so it just wasn’t done. Wasn’t even considered.” “Holy shit, they were stupid.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/131 "2019-07-24T20:59:22Z")
As much as I admire a firm commitment to principle…this is a man who was willing to take a bullet for his country, he can’t bend a principle when stern duty demands? That is too much of a sacrifice for a patriot? Upside: that video bite of being asked if he “exonerated” Il Douche. “No”. We here all pretty much know that, sure. But when we tell somebody else, they had to look it up, go the extra mile. This is _right_ there, inna you face. I think that matters. The _lumpen_ won’t see much of this, but they _will_ see that. The ones who took Barr at his word, the one’s who heard Trump say he was exonerated, the one’s who are easy targets for solid and simple sound bites… Maybe enough. Time will tell, and both sides do it. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/132 "2019-07-24T21:04:23Z")
Boy, we got Trump now!. This is what we have all been waiting for! Someone is going to trip and say something that they shouldn’t have said. Then there will be more questions. And those questions will have inadequate answers. So we keep going. All through Donald’s second term and half way through Ivanka’s first term. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/133 "2019-07-24T21:06:02Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Sometimes I feel like I’m the only person who’s been paying attention during the past 3 years. I’ve been hearing non-stop from everyone how Muller was going to bring Trump down any day now, and I maintained the entire time that it would amount to nothing, and nobody believed me. I said, “Trump’s ONLY TALENT is avoiding consequences.” They all said, “nah, this guy Muller, he’s very thorough, he’s a real badass, he’s gonna bring it all toppling down.” Actually, they all said “Trump isn’t even going to run, come on, you know that means he’d have to disclose his taxes.” I said, “he doesn’t give a fuck, he’s not gonna play by the rules,” and surely enough he didn’t. Then they all said “the GOP will freeze him out, he’ll never get the nomination, not a chance in hell” and…“Hillary will mop the floor with him”. > > What people don’t understand is that attempting to find loopholes to make this nightmare disappear is never going to work, and only makes his detractors look incompetent. Trying to impeach him will just be setting up for failure, and it will have the same result. The only way to beat him is to beat him. With a shovel, a baseball bat, or a less illegal and more procedural kind of assault weapon? Just what procedure do you have in mind here? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/134 "2019-07-24T21:18:11Z")
What do you think? You think I’m gonna advocate physical harm to the president on this forum? No, I don’t know why you’d even bring that up, I mean to beat him in the election. I think that was pretty implicit in what I said. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/135 "2019-07-24T21:18:21Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Sometimes I feel like I’m the only person who’s been paying attention during the past 3 years. I’ve been hearing non-stop from everyone how Muller was going to bring Trump down any day now, and I maintained the entire time that it would amount to nothing, and nobody believed me. I said, “Trump’s ONLY TALENT is avoiding consequences.” They all said, “nah, this guy Muller, he’s very thorough, he’s a real badass, he’s gonna bring it all toppling down.” Actually, they all said “Trump isn’t even going to run, come on, you know that means he’d have to disclose his taxes.” I said, “he doesn’t give a fuck, he’s not gonna play by the rules,” and surely enough he didn’t. Then they all said “the GOP will freeze him out, he’ll never get the nomination, not a chance in hell” and…“Hillary will mop the floor with him”. > > What people don’t understand is that attempting to find loopholes to make this nightmare disappear is never going to work, and only makes his detractors look incompetent. Trying to impeach him will just be setting up for failure, and it will have the same result. The only way to beat him is to beat him. I agree to the extent that what this orange assclown has demonstrated (without forethought) is how ineffectual the US government institutions and norms really are. When a weak minded buffoon like Trump can disregard congressional oversight, flout rules of conduct dictated by established regulatory bodies, refuse judicial regulations and constitutional laws (i.e. Treasury shall furnish to Congress…), any rational individual should quickly realize that the thin veneer called “Rule of Law” is in need of serious rethinking as far as providing actual enforceable consequential actions against those who would think it doesn’t apply to them. If this Mueller hearing farce accomplishes anything, I hope it’s to make that abundantly clear to all those who still believe in some idealized version of America’s exceptionalism and institutional checks & balances. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/136 "2019-07-24T21:24:11Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > “So, why did the United States collapse? I’m still having a hard time with this one, professor.” > > “Well, you see, somebody wrote a memo. And that memo apparently had the force of law. And that memo prevented anybody from removing a President who committed crimes, even though the US was founded on the principle that no one was above the law. Which they weren’t until someone wrote a memo.” > > “WHAT?” > > “Yes. A fucking _memo_ is all it took.” > > “But… I mean… couldn’t somebody just have written another memo?” > > “You’d think. But everyone acted as if this memo was some fiat handed down by God, so it just wasn’t done. Wasn’t even considered.” > > “Holy shit, they were stupid.” The 1973 and 2000 memos are binding on DOJ employees and I think it is well justified. It was and continues to be valid not because it was handed down by God, but because the DOJ agrees with its contents. If you want to start a thread about it I might jump in on the defense. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/137 "2019-07-24T21:45:31Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I agree to the extent that what this orange assclown has demonstrated (without forethought) is how ineffectual the US government institutions and norms really are. When a weak minded buffoon like Trump can disregard congressional oversight, flout rules of conduct dictated by established regulatory bodies, refuse judicial regulations and constitutional laws (i.e. Treasury shall furnish to Congress…), any rational individual should quickly realize that the thin veneer called “Rule of Law” is in need of serious rethinking as far as providing actual enforceable consequential actions against those who would think it doesn’t apply to them. > > If this Mueller hearing farce accomplishes anything, I hope it’s to make that abundantly clear to all those who still believe in some idealized version of America’s exceptionalism and institutional checks & balances. But back to what Lamoral was saying, it’s the voters themselves and their common faith in political institutions and political and legal systems that largely undergird or undermine them. The systems themselves were stronger at one time, but they’re weakened now because fewer people identify with them. We’re losing a sense of a shared value system, which is what we’re seeing and why everything now seems like political theater. I don’t know if there’s a remedy until we can get people to buy into the democratic and political norms we seem to have lost. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/138 "2019-07-24T21:51:48Z")
My favorite line: Mueller: I’m not going to discuss that. Congressman: You put in your report. Page 196. In general Mueller came across as your grandfather when you start looking for a home. This is absolutely a disaster for the Dems. No new information came out and from what little I heard Mueller came across as evasive and dottering. When he evaded the issues on the Steele Portfolio and the Clinton campaign’s relation to the Russians and there was a person who reported contact to the Russians (forgot the name - sorry) who later lied to the investigators three times and was NOT indicted. Really shows favoritism. I know the Dems wanted Mueller to say “Trump is guilty of obstruction but I can’t indict him” but he didn’t and at a few points implied Trump didn’t obstruct. IMHO impeachment is now off the table. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/139 "2019-07-24T21:55:01Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The 1973 and 2000 memos are binding on DOJ employees and I think it is well justified. It was and continues to be valid not because it was handed down by God, but because the DOJ agrees with its contents. If you want to start a thread about it I might jump in on the defense. > > ~Max No need to start a thread re: some silly theory about how a memo ordered by a President under legal duress actually makes sense, especially given the near-200 year history prior to that when the country was running fine without this memo. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542/140 "2019-07-24T21:59:10Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I know the Dems wanted Mueller to say “Trump is guilty of obstruction but I can’t indict him” but he didn’t and at a few points implied Trump didn’t obstruct. IMHO impeachment is now off the table. > [@](#): > > Congressman: “Could you charge the President with a crime after he left office?” > > Mueller: “Yes.” > > Congressman: “You could charge the President with obstruction of justice after he left office?” > > Mueller: “Yes.” I see what you mean. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-counsel-robert-mueller-testifies-before-congress/837542.md?page=8)