Special forces mistake Afghan boys school for IED cell, execute students

[RedFury]

@magellan01

For purposes of your point, I’d go as far as to add the 22% to the 49%, as these people evidently believe that under some extraordinary circumstances, torture is justified.

Problem is, “extraordinary” gets qualified by the people doing the torturing – while those agreeing with it bob their heads up and down.

[Danimal]

@xtisme

AFAICT, there WAS an investigation, but by the US military and by NATO into the events, and, again AFAICT, the soldiers were in fact exonerated…again, by the US Military and/or NATO.

Where are you finding that? The Times article doesn’t mention any investigation except Wafa’s that I can see. If we trust the Anti Press article, then ASAF agreed to an investigation by an independent panel, but it’s not clear if such an investigation has even started, much less concluded and exonerated or condemned anybody. And an independent panel investigation would not be the US or NATO investigation you refer to.

[Mapache]

@magellan01

Cite.

Cite. Particulalrly for the first two, so we can avoid the side debate of that is and isn’t "torture?.

Cite.

Try this. http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Danner/1993/truthelmoz01.html If you can sleep tonight with the memory of the description of what our brave and “misunderstood” allies (said Reagan at the time) did, wearing American uniforms, with American arms, and trained at the “School of Americas” you are probably just as callous as you sound.

[XT]

@Danimal

Where are you finding that?

Well, for one thing, it’s in the linked MSN article from earlier in the thread:

UN special representative in Afghanistan Kai Eide said in a statement that the preliminary UN investigation showed “strong indication” that there were insurgents in the area at the time of the attack.

But, he added, “based on our initial investigation, eight of those killed were students enrolled in local schools.”

Also this:

He said the U.N. “continues to investigate this incident to help bring clarity to the situation.” He welcomed efforts by the Afghan government and the international military to do the same.

This seems to indicate that they did at least a preliminary UN investigation into it. From the same article, the Afghan government also did an investigation:

The Afghan government said its investigation has established that all 10 people killed Sunday in a remote village in Kunar province were civilians. Its officials said that eight of those killed were schoolchildren aged 12-14.

I don’t remember where I was reading about the US investigation (and I might be mixing this up with the helicopter incident), but if I have some time later and I’m not beaten to the punch, I’ll see if I can dig up more on that.

The thing is, just because the info isn’t in the Times article doesn’t mean it’s not out there. You need to look at more than one source, especially on something as provocative as ‘Special forces mistake Afghan boys school for IED cell, execute students’. Your bullshit detector should at least twitch on such a statement, and you should go in with at least a bit of skepticism. Even if it’s later proved to be absolutely true, a bit of skepticism at first does no harm.

-XT

[RedFury]

XT, in light of reports such as this one or the Wikileaks one, why are you always willing to put on your Captain America Cape first? Think the whole World conspires to make your* Armed Forces look bad or is it possible that they are doing a good job at that on their own?

NATO’s Afghan Civilian Killings More than Doubled in Early 2010

*and what’s left of your allies of course. Personally I’d have no problem at all in condemning Spanish troops if they are involved in civilian killings – hardly joined to them at the hip just 'cause we were born in the same territory. Besides – and here I believe we agree – I think it high time everyone got the fuck outta Afghanistan…for all the “good” that being there is doing.

[XT]

@RedFury

XT, in light of reports such as this one or the Wikileaks one, why are you always willing to put on your Captain America Cape first?

Well Red, you have literally pages and pages of me going on about the Wikileaks thingy, so I’m sure you can draw your own conclusions from that. As for your general question, I’m probably more disposed to give the troops (US, NATO, even Spanish ;)) the benefit of the doubt until I see something conclusive as evidence. If I DO see some real evidence, such as what happened at Abu Ghraib, I’m certainly more than willing to come out and say that it was wrong, and that those involved should have the book thrown at them and do some serious time. You may THINK I put on my ‘Captain American Cape first’, and there is a grain of truth there, but it’s fairly ironic that your own disposition is to believe any anti-American (or seemingly anti-NATO, anti-Spanish military, or, to cut to the chase, simply anti-military) thing tossed out just because it meets your own world view. The question then would be…Red, why are you so willing to believe anecdotal evidence or witnesses of unknown reliability and motive every time?

As to your aside, I think I agree…it’s time for us to get the fuck out of Afghanistan and let those folks get back to killing each other off as they have been doing for decades (hell, centuries…possibly forever) without our assistance.

WRT your link, I only skimmed it (for obvious reasons), but perhaps the reason that civilian casualties have increased has something to do with the fact that NATO has been pushing the pace of the conflict since Obama was elected and shifted our (and NATO’s) emphasis to Afghanistan. It also might have to do with the fact that the Taliban have become more active as well.

There are more things going on there than simply our blood thirsty troops laying about them randomly without regard to civilian causalities…the world is not black and white, nor are the people who disagree with you about this stuff comic book villains (I’d prefer to be Zorro, in any case).

-XT

[HongKongFooey]

@xtisme

I, personally, find it incredibly difficult to swallow the line that US Special Forces (who are a highly trained and disciplined fighting force, not just in combat but also in the concepts of ‘hearts and minds’) handcuffed Afghani students, dragged them out and then summarily executed them. Hell, I find it hard to swallow that a Spec Ops team would handcuff ANY Afghani prisoners and then summarily execute them. Not because I don’t think these guys could or would be that ruthless, but because it would be so STUPID. I’m also not seeing any of our NATO allies doing anything like this.

Politically I’m probably the antithesis of xtisme (a Canadian liberal) but I have to agree with this. Special Forces soldiers are very intelligent. Surprisingly intelligent. They go about their business quietly and do much much more than raid villages shooting anyone much less innocent civilians. I don’t know enough about the other Special Operations groups but SF guys (the Green Berets) didn’t do this. It’s just not believable for the exact reason he said. Too stupid.

[gonzomax]

@magellan01

You malign a group of people who have acted with honor and risked and given their lives for our country. You rightly get called a scumbag for doing so, and you take it as a compliment. :rolleyes: I guess it’s just the sort of thinking one should expect from a scumbag like you.

And while I’m flattered that you think my person has so much gravitas that what I say so colors your hateful stupidity that it strips it of either the hate or the stupidity, sorry, scumbag, that’s not the way the world works.

I always new you were prone to phony piety, but had no idea that your brain was as contaminated as that of that fount of hate and stupidity, Der Trihs. Consider ignorance fought.

Honor? They acted with honor? I suppose the Afghani parents and relatives will understand such honor. They will accept it as just an accident of war. No reason they should take a personal affront, is there? Make an omelet, you have to crack a few eggs. No reason for them to get upset that their kids were killed by soldiers from a country that is thousands of miles away. They will understand that their children were legitimate threats to the worlds strongest military and just forget all about it.