# Special Names for Animal Meat **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 25, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758 "2013-11-25T16:04:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/1 "2013-11-25T16:04:04Z")
I’ve noticed that in the English language certain animals have specific names for their meat. For example, meat from cattle is called ‘beef’, and meat from deer is called ‘venison’, and meat from sheep is called ‘mutton’, yet chicken meat is just called ‘chicken’, turkey meat is just called ‘turkey’, and goat meat is just called ‘goat’. Why did we inherit special names for certain kinds of meat and no special names for other kinds of meat? Any ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/2 "2013-11-25T16:08:48Z")
I suspect that it’s due to the socioeconomic situation in Norman Britain. The foods that the rich ate were called by French-derived names, but the animals that produced those foods were raised by the poor, and thus called by Anglo-Saxon-derived names. Meanwhile, foods which were accessible to the poor were called by their Anglo-Saxon-derived names both for their living form and for the foods they were turned into. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/3 "2013-11-25T16:10:54Z")
This goes back to the Normands who introduced French words for animals whilst the English speaking peasantry kept the old English names. Over the years these French words came to be the the name for the meat. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/4 "2013-11-25T16:14:15Z")
The farmers spoke Anglo-Saxon, the cooks spoke French. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/5 "2013-11-25T16:24:01Z")
1066\* - since the explanations were getting shorter and shorter, I thought I’d shoot for the shortest. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/6 "2013-11-25T16:24:11Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > goat meat is just called ‘goat’. Goat meat is sometimes called chevon (which like beef, mutton, and pork is derived from French). The reason chevon is not a common term is because goat meat isn’t all that popular in America. One group that does eat goat more often are Hispanic Americans. For that reason, you’ll sometimes see goat meat being sold as cabrito, which is Spanish. And sometimes you’ll see goat meat being called mutton, which is just ignorance of zoology and cuisine. One unrelated note on meat terms. People marketing ostriches decided they needed a fancy term for the meat. But for some reason rather than using the French autruche they decided to go with the German strauss. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/7 "2013-11-25T16:52:12Z")
Thanks folks. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/8 "2013-11-25T17:30:52Z")
Just to add my $0.02 without actually providing an answer, I was in Italy and referred to a farm animal as “pollo”, which means “chicken.” Somebody laughed and said that’s only what they called it when it was on your plate. So Italian has a word for the meat though English doesn’t. And they generally refer to pork as “pig meat.” I don’t speak German but I remember “schweinfleisch” on a menu in an American restaurant serving German cuisine, which means “pig meat” IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/9 "2013-11-25T17:43:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I suspect that it’s due to the socioeconomic situation in Norman Britain. The foods that the rich ate were called by French-derived names, but the animals that produced those foods were raised by the poor, and thus called by Anglo-Saxon-derived names. Meanwhile, foods which were accessible to the poor were called by their Anglo-Saxon-derived names both for their living form and for the foods they were turned into. See my staff report [Why do we eat “beef” and “pork” rather than “cow” and “pig”?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2008/why-do-we-eat-beef-and-pork-rather-than-cow-and-pig) As for chicken, although there is no distinct word for the meat, the English word poultry is derived from the Anglo-French _puller_; in modern French, _poulet_ refers to both the animal and the meat. As has been said, goat was not commonly used for meat in England at the time of the Norman Conquest. Turkey came to Europe from the Americas long afterward. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/10 "2013-11-25T17:46:29Z")
Interestingly, (to me) young animal meat often as its own terminology such as veal, lamb, suckling pig, etc. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/11 "2013-11-25T18:45:09Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > This goes back to the Normands who introduced French words for animals whilst the English speaking peasantry kept the old English names. Over the years these French words came to be the the name for the meat. In a weird preliminary to that situation, the same situation was alread present in France, with \*boeuf \*meaning the meat, and \*vache \*meaning the animal. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/12 "2013-11-25T22:17:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Interestingly, (to me) young animal meat often as its own terminology such as veal, lamb, suckling pig, etc. That’s not the name of the meat, it’s the name of the animal. A young calf is a veal. The meat from a veal is veal meat. An unweaned piglet is a suckling pig. The meat from a suckling pig is suckling pig meat. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/13 "2013-11-25T22:21:42Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > That’s not the name of the meat, it’s the name of the animal. > > A young calf is a veal. The meat from a veal is veal meat. > An unweaned piglet is a suckling pig. The meat from a suckling pig is suckling pig meat. > > And so on. I’ve never heard the meat from a calf called anything but veal. Never “veal meet”. Ditto for suckling pig. And the OP missed pig/pork. Also an English/French couplet. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/14 "2013-11-25T22:55:36Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > That’s not the name of the meat, it’s the name of the animal. > > A young calf is a veal. The meat from a veal is veal meat. This is wrong. The primary meaning of “veal” is to refer to the meat of the animal. (Although the word can sometimes be used to refer to a calf raised for veal, this usage is comparatively rare.) I have never heard of veal referred to as “veal meat.” [Merriam Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/veal) > [@](#): > > veal noun \ˈvēl > : the meat of a young cow (called a calf) that is used for food > > Full Definition of VEAL > > 1: the flesh of a young calf > 2: calf; especially : vealer [QUOTE=Blake] An unweaned piglet is a suckling pig. The meat from a suckling pig is suckling pig meat. And so on. [/QUOTE] Actually, the meat from a suckling pig is usually simply referred to [as](http://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/pork-recipes/jamie-s-christmas-suckling-pig) [suckling](http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-live/roast-suckling-pig-recipe/index.html) [pig.](http://larkseattle.com/news-and-events/suckling-pig-dinner-lark) It would not be common to refer to it as suckling pig meat. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/15 "2013-11-26T00:04:17Z")
No, and you’ve never heard of chicken referred to as chicken meat either. Or tuna referred to as tuna meat. Or rabbit referred to as rabbit meat. That is the whole point. In English we rarely add “meat” to the name of the animal we are eating. We assume that the listener knows that once we have named an animal. The list that kayaker provided is simply a list of the animals that don’t have specific names for their meat, so we apply the standard English practice of referring to the meat by the same name as the animal. No different to rabbit or chicken or tuna. They are definitely not examples of the meat of young animals being given their own name. They are simply examples the meat being given the same name as the animal. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/16 "2013-11-26T00:57:44Z")
Except veal isn’t veal meat; it’s calf meat. Nobody ever refers to a live calf as “veal” unless it’s intended to be eaten young, and often not even then. You do have a point with “lamb” and “suckling pig”, though, since the live animals are called that. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/17 "2013-11-26T01:13:39Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > They are definitely not examples of the meat of young animals being given their own name. They are simply examples the meat being given the same name as the animal. This is definitely not correct in the case of veal, as the Merriam-Webster definition clearly shows. The order of senses in Merriam-Webster is historical: the first known sense of a word is given first, and later senses follow. From this, it is evident that veal was first used to refer to the meat of a calf, and the sense of a calf raised for veal came later. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/18 "2013-11-26T02:29:05Z")
Veal is connected to the French _veau_, a calf, and it came into English at the same time as, and in the same way as beef, pork, venison and mutton; with the Normans and their fancy dining-room French. “Veal” in the sense of a calf does turn up in English, but not until a good deal later, and even then it’s rare and is only ever used to a calf that has been or is intended to be slaughtered for food. (And “veal calf” is a variety of leather.) ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/19 "2013-11-26T03:12:44Z")
From Walter Scott’s _Ivanhoe_: > [@](#): > > “Truly,” said Wamba, without stirring from the spot, “I have consulted my legs upon this matter, and they are altogether of opinion, that to carry my gay garments through these sloughs, would be an act of unfriendship to my sovereign person and royal wardrobe; wherefore, Gurth, I advise thee to call off Fangs, and leave the herd to their destiny, which, whether they meet with bands of travelling soldiers, or of outlaws, or of wandering pilgrims, can be little else than to be converted into Normans before morning, to thy no small ease and comfort.” > > “The swine turned Normans to my comfort!” quoth Gurth; “expound that to me, Wamba, for my brain is too dull, and my mind too vexed, to read riddles.” > > “Why, how call you those grunting brutes running about on their four legs?” demanded Wamba. > > “Swine, fool, swine,” said the herd, “every fool knows that.” > > “And swine is good Saxon,” said the Jester; “but how call you the sow when she is flayed, and drawn, and quartered, and hung up by the heels, like a traitor?” > > “Pork,” answered the swine-herd. > > “I am very glad every fool knows that too,” said Wamba, “and pork, I think, is good Norman-French; and so when the brute lives, and is in the charge of a Saxon slave, she goes by her Saxon name; but becomes a Norman, and is called pork, when she is carried to the Castle-hall to feast among the nobles what dost thou think of this, friend Gurth, ha?” > > “It is but too true doctrine, friend Wamba, however it got into thy fool’s pate.” > > “Nay, I can tell you more,” said Wamba, in the same tone; “there is old Alderman Ox continues to hold his Saxon epithet, while he is under the charge of serfs and bondsmen such as thou, but becomes Beef, a fiery French gallant, when he arrives before the worshipful jaws that are destined to consume him. Mynheer Calf, too, becomes Monsieur de Veau in the like manner; he is Saxon when he requires tendance, and takes a Norman name when he becomes matter of enjoyment.” > > “By St Dunstan,” answered Gurth, “thou speakest but sad truths; little is left to us but the air we breathe, and that appears to have been reserved with much hesitation, solely for the purpose of enabling us to endure the tasks they lay upon our shoulders. The finest and the fattest is for their board; the loveliest is for their couch; the best and bravest supply their foreign masters with soldiers, and whiten distant lands with their bones, leaving few here who have either will or the power to protect the unfortunate Saxon. God’s blessing on our master Cedric, he hath done the work of a man in standing in the gap; but Reginald Front-de-Boeuf is coming down to this country in person, and we shall soon see how little Cedric’s trouble will avail him.—Here, here,” he exclaimed again, raising his voice, “So ho! so ho! well done, Fangs! thou hast them all before thee now, and bring’st them on bravely, lad.” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758/20 "2013-11-26T03:59:50Z")
Well, I’m hungry. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-names-for-animal-meat/674758.md?page=2)