# Special needs student can't wear varsity letter jacket. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170 "2015-03-28T00:55:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/261 "2015-03-30T20:23:16Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Because if the mom won’t let this go, what else won’t she let go? And if it isn’t this annoying mom, there are all the other annoying moms and dads, guardians, grandparents, etc., who will see this example and think, make enough noise, get enough press, and their little special snowflake can have everything it (pronoun used on purpose) wants. Sometimes a line has to be drawn and an established rule enforced. No one wears unearned letters seems simple and fair. You may to read about the [slippery slope fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope). If people start following this mom’s lead by purchasing letters for their sad sack kids, what is the worse that would happen? Would athletes stop trying out for varsity sports? Would the teams start losing all the games? Would the students lose their school spirit? Or would the school figure out another way to honor their “best”? There are schools all over the country who don’t do the precious letter thing. My high school didn’t. Somehow we managed. ---
**Author:** ![Clawdio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/262 "2015-03-30T20:32:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The fact that you’re equating these things blows my mind. > > Earn enough A’s and you can get into an Ivy. Earn a Ph.D and you can teach in one. A varsity letter signifies only that some administrator somewhere thinks you have sufficient school pride. You beat me to it. It’s not as if the kid (or his mom) is forging some official document stating that he was a member of the varsity basketball team, complete with signatures and a stamp from the local notary public. It’s just a letter for his school jacket, something which quite literally in this case can be purchased at the store. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/263 "2015-03-30T20:33:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Because if the mom won’t let this go, what else won’t she let go? And if it isn’t this annoying mom, there are all the other annoying moms and dads, guardians, grandparents, etc., who will see this example and think, make enough noise, get enough press, and their little special snowflake can have everything it (pronoun used on purpose) wants. Sometimes a line has to be drawn and an established rule enforced. No one wears unearned letters seems simple and fair. This kid is a ‘special snowflake’. He goes to special classes, he might have a special one to one aid, he gets special attention. And as a society, we should allow him a few special privileges, because there’s a good chance he wont even get to see his 50th birthday. And isn’t that special. I feel it should be pointed out yet again that the school did not issue this kid a letter. His mother did. Had everyone ignored it, the kid might have felt, briefly, like he was part of the group, and _no one_, not a single student, would have mistaken him for a varsity player. They would have taken one look at him and known _exactly_ how he got that letter, ensuring the continued honor of the sacred badge. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/264 "2015-03-30T21:07:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Receiving a Ph.D at my particular institution DID mean that I had to write a thesis and perform original research. I didn’t get a Ph.D for “trying”. > > But it is possible to get a Ph.D for “trying”, I’m sure. Probably from a diploma mill somewhere. And? A person who has a Ph.D from such an institution is easy to distinguish from individuals who actually did doctorate-level work. I’m not at any risk of having my job taken away from me by someone who is an imposter or wanna-be. I think without realizing it, you’re helping to add to Shodan’s point, not take away from it. Your Ph.D means something because your particular institution does not give that distinction away just for trying. You did not receive it from a diploma mill. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/265 "2015-03-30T21:14:57Z")
**monstro** , take a look at this website [edit: see below], where anyone can get print out a Ph.D. certificate. Do you want to make this website illegal? Do you think it invalidates all your hard work and recognition? Because if you don’t, then maybe you didn’t add to Shodan’s point after all. Edit: good grief, it just occurred to me that linking to that website could look like promoting illegal activity if you think I’m advocating using those diplomas fraudulently. I’m removing the link, but anyone can google a website like this. Note, of course, the difference between using a website like that for personal gain–a key part of the definition of fraud–and what would be analogous to this situation, which would be, say, a dude with mild Down’s Syndrome and a sense of humor about it who bought an obviously fake Ph.D. from MIT in applied robotics or something. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/266 "2015-03-30T21:29:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **monstro** , take a look at this website [edit: see below], where anyone can get print out a Ph.D. certificate. Do you want to make this website illegal? Do you think it invalidates all your hard work and recognition? > > Because if you don’t, then maybe you didn’t add to Shodan’s point after all. You’re not getting it either. She already inferred that she didn’t care about what goes on at other institutions, so you don’t have to bother to ask. Instead, ask Monstro if she would have minded at the time she was awarded her Ph.D if her particular institution gave the same grades and Ph.D to anyone who tried. Or even those that didn’t try. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/267 "2015-03-30T21:32:39Z")
WS Gilbert’s words come to mind, _When everybody’s somebody Then no one’s anybody._ If everybody can display a letter then what’s the point of them? They become totally valueless. I sympathize with the kid, it’s his mom who’s at fault here. She should have known better. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/268 "2015-03-30T21:38:08Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > You’re not getting it either. She already inferred that she didn’t care about what goes on at other institutions, so you don’t have to bother to ask. Instead, ask Monstro if she would have minded at the time she was awarded her Ph.D if her particular institution gave the same grades and Ph.D to anyone who tried. Or even those that didn’t try. Why would I ask her that? What does that have to do with the situation we’re discussing? Spell your analogy out, please–not because I think I don’t get it, but because if you do, I think you’ll realize just how disanalogous it is. ---
**Author:** ![Chetumal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Chetumal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chetumal)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/269 "2015-03-30T22:11:31Z")
Did anyone notice in the video that the kid apparently doesn’t even know the rules of basketball, much less play at a varsity level? He’s seen being passed the ball, then starts running off with it in his hands (a clear case of traveling)… ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/270 "2015-03-30T22:12:27Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > You’re not getting it either. She already inferred that she didn’t care about what goes on at other institutions, so you don’t have to bother to ask. Instead, ask Monstro if she would have minded at the time she was awarded her Ph.D if her particular institution gave the same grades and Ph.D to anyone who tried. Or even those that didn’t try. Once again, the school gave the boy _nothing_. This Ph.D argument only works if he gets to use his letter for a football scholarship, or get his name etched on the trophy, or some other ridiculous scenario. The letter, worn by the boy with Downs, means nothing, except possibly to him. No one could possibly see it as diminishing the meaning of their letter, because everyone knows that the Special ed kid’s badge is fake, except for him. EVERYONE. KNOWS. It is not the same honor. It is not the same letter. It can never be the same, and _everyone knows it the second they look at him._ Had the jacket belonged to an older brother who lent it to him, would that be okay? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/271 "2015-03-30T22:16:39Z")
> [@Chetumal](#): > > Did anyone notice in the video that the kid apparently doesn’t even know the rules of basketball, much less play at a varsity level? He’s seen being passed the ball, then starts running off with it in his hands (a clear case of traveling)… :dubious: …and? ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/272 "2015-03-30T22:20:57Z")
> [@Chetumal](#): > > Did anyone notice in the video that the kid apparently doesn’t even know the rules of basketball, much less play at a varsity level? He’s seen being passed the ball, then starts running off with it in his hands (a clear case of traveling)… It’s almost like he’s intellectually disabled or something. ---
**Author:** ![Clawdio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/273 "2015-03-30T22:23:36Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > You’re not getting it either. She already inferred that she didn’t care about what goes on at other institutions, so you don’t have to bother to ask. Instead, ask Monstro if she would have minded at the time she was awarded her Ph.D if her particular institution gave the same grades and Ph.D to anyone who tried. Or even those that didn’t try. A Ph.D diploma is an official document. Grades are an official matter of record (in a way, as part of your transcript). What we’re talking about here is a letter that you sew on to a jacket. This kid is not being included in the official record books, he is not listed as part of the team in the school year book, or even posing for a photo with the team. Equating the letter with any of those things, is like equating a shirt that says “Superbowl Champions” with actually winning the Superbowl. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/274 "2015-03-30T22:45:39Z")
> [@Chetumal](#): > > Did anyone notice in the video that the kid apparently doesn’t even know the rules of basketball, much less play at a varsity level? He’s seen being passed the ball, then starts running off with it in his hands (a clear case of traveling)… They _never_ call traveling. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/275 "2015-03-30T23:03:59Z")
Well, I’m just going to say, for the final time, that I feel giving him the letter is more about pity, and seeing him as “The Disabled Kid”, rather than an individual. Like patting yourself on the back, and saying, “look at this good deed we did!” It seems there is an actual letter for the disabled team, and I think, if he actually earned that, it should mean more. Treat him as an individual, not a fucking charity case. (As for the whole, “well, he doesn’t understand!!!” The article did not say how severe his disability was, so that’s just speculation) ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/276 "2015-03-30T23:09:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Why would I ask her that? Because you asked her “Do you want to make this website illegal?” which is a question that need not be answered. She already made it clear that she doesn’t care. about other institutions. The question I mentioned is relevant to the discussion Shodan and her were having. > [@](#): > > What does that have to do with the situation we’re discussing? Spell your analogy out, please–not because I think I don’t get it, but because if you do, I think you’ll realize just how disanalogous it is. No, if you said you didn’t get it, I’d be happy to spell it out for you. I appreciate you asking me to do it for my sake, but I get it just fine and I’m not being “disingenuous.” > [@Clawdio](#): > > A Ph.D diploma is an official document. Grades are an official matter of record (in a way, as part of your transcript). What we’re talking about here is a letter that you sew on to a jacket. This kid is not being included in the official record books, he is not listed as part of the team in the school year book, or even posing for a photo with the team. Equating the letter with any of those things, is like equating a shirt that says “Superbowl Champions” with actually winning the Superbowl. i understand the analogy to a Ph.D is not a perfect one, Clawdio, and that the importance level is not equivalent and that the student and/or his mother just want him to wear the letter and not make the Varsity distinction official. I am merely pointing out that Monstro declaring she wouldn’t care if _other_ institutions are diploma mills wouldn’t bother her because what her Ph.D represents would be unchanged is not as relevant as how she would feel if her particular institution were a diploma mill. This particular school cares how Varsity letters are treated…in their school. Maybe a better analogy would be military ribbons (yet a far from perfect one). How would you feel about military members buying any ribbons they want and wearing them on their uniforms? I’m not talking about claiming they earned them on official documents or wearing them at official functions, but just wearing them on and off base. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/277 "2015-03-30T23:14:48Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > Once again, the school gave the boy _nothing_. This Ph.D argument only works if he gets to use his letter for a football scholarship, or get his name etched on the trophy, or some other ridiculous scenario. The letter, worn by the boy with Downs, means nothing, except possibly to him. No one could possibly see it as diminishing the meaning of their letter, because everyone knows that the Special ed kid’s badge is fake, except for him. EVERYONE. KNOWS. It is not the same honor. It is not the same letter. It can never be the same, and _everyone knows it the second they look at him._ Bears repeating. Pointlessly, I’m sure, but worth a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/278 "2015-03-30T23:17:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Your dad was part of the problem. Sorry you got a dad who excused his behavior to you with a repetition of this old saw. Dad wasn’t excusing his behavior - he was explaining why sometimes in life justice doesn’t happen, bad things happen to good people, and sometimes even when you try your hardest you don’t come in first. All of which is true. > [@](#): > > In this case, life’s not fair because **people have set it up that way**. And the mom found a way to make it a little more fair. The mom was in the right, in this case. Mom did an end-run around the rules - the rules that say you have to earn a spot on a particular team to get a particular award. Giving the kid an unearned award doesn’t fix anything - it doesn’t make him less autistic, it doesn’t fix his chromosomes, it doesn’t make him the equal of anyone else. > [@](#): > > As stated before, the idea that this kid, who drew the black spot in the genetic lottery, needs a chance to learn the lesson that life’s not fair–that’s borderline insanity. To the extent that a kid with severe intellectual disabilities is able to understand an abstract generalization like “life’s not fair,” **he’s got the point**. Thanks much, but you don’t need to give him another example. I think his MOM needs to learn that - I’m sorry the kid has problems, but giving him unearned honors and awards won’t fix jack about the situation. > [@](#): > > You know, I know there’s the idea of “participation trophies,” and they’re one of the less proud parts of how baby boomers parented. **In general** , it’s not a great idea to give participation trophies to kids. There’s nothing wrong with some sort of certificate of participation _if you actually participated_. You don’t get first place, though, unless you _actually_ come in first. > [@](#): > > But this isn’t a general case. This is a kid who is never going to fit in socially or intellectually with his neurotypical peers. In order for him to function in a group, neurotypical folks are going to have to make allowances–reasonable accommodations. Letting him wear a letter jacket is about as reasonable as an accommodation can get. What next? Are you going to give him a driver’s license even if he can’t pass a driving test to make him feel better? Or make his mom feel better? If he can’t get a driver’s license will mom pay to have a fake one made for him? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/279 "2015-03-30T23:19:14Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, I’m just going to say, for the final time, that I feel giving him the letter is more about pity, and seeing him as “The Disabled Kid”, rather than an individual. Like patting yourself on the back, and saying, “look at this good deed we did!” It seems there is an actual letter for the disabled team, and I think, if he actually earned that, it should mean more. Treat him as an individual, not a fucking charity case. ) The problem is that he is a charity case. Adopted Down Syndrome kid, with autism no less. The only way he could be more of a charity case is if he had liver disease. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170/280 "2015-03-30T23:19:58Z")
And a question for those about “pity”… is it intrinsically wrong to feel pity for someone (and in turn, help them in some way that makes their lives one iota better) who doesn’t even understand the concept, and therefore wouldn’t be as put off by it by other people that do? Although I’m not saying that this young man in incapable of grokking that, but for those that aren’t? If having folks feel sorry for me is not something I grasp, then I don’t really think it would bother me at all if anything was done _for me_ as a result of it. It just wouldn’t be on my ever be on my radar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-needs-student-cant-wear-varsity-letter-jacket/716170.md?page=15)