# "Special rights" for Christians? Free speech? Airborne spam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894 "2003-06-05T18:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/21 "2003-06-06T05:01:51Z")
**I love my partner. Period. How DARE those. . . people. . . call our relationship sin merely because of our gender?** Well there’s that little thing called the First Amendment … You don’t have to like what they say, and they certainly don’t have the right to harass you. But if they wanna call your relationship sin, for whatever reason, that’s their right. Just like you have the right to call them nutsos (or whatever else) for it. **(I’d call it “chutzpah” but I’d bet my last nickel they also have a problem with Jews).** Yeah, big problem with Jews. I guess that’s why they worship Jesus (a _gasp_ Jew) and revere a book that was written almost entirely by Jews. And then there’s that whole vehement support of Israel thing … can I have a nickel now? **How would they like it if I flew an airplane over their church with the message “Reading books will set you free from Christianity”?** Who cares if they wouldn’t like it? They can’t stop you expressing your opinion and to be honest they probably wouldn’t be too concerned about what your banner said to begin with. Long as your airplane didn’t invade the airspace they own, there wouldn’t be anything they could do about it anyway so what would be the point? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/22 "2003-06-06T05:21:34Z")
A. Fundie wackos can preach all they like, but they are not allowed to harrass. Apparently your definition of harrasment is looser than mine. B. Fundies worship Jesus, but they deny his Jewishness. They support Israel only because they believe it to be an essential prop in their pathetic eschatological pageant. But they hate actual Jews. Bailey Smith, the former head of the Southern Baptist Convention said in 1980, “God does not hear the prayers of Jews.” And the fundie line has always been that unconveted Jews are headed straight for hell. C. You support antigay bigotry. How many more Matthew Sgepahrds have to die for YOURs ins? Fundies are the ministers of evil. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/23 "2003-06-06T05:32:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*C. You support antigay bigotry. How many more Matthew Sgepahrds have to die for YOURs ins? \*\* There is absolutely nothing in **SnoopyFan** ’s posts in this thread that could plausibly lead to that conclusion. Unless you’ve got something he’s written in another thread (in which case, make with the linky-link), you owe him an apology. Suggesting that a group has a first amendment right to express its views is not tantamount to endorsing those views. Supporting the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie does not make one a Nazi. And supporting the right of fundamentalist Christians to proselytize in a non-harrassing manner does not make one a fundie. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/24 "2003-06-06T05:37:54Z")
**gobear** I guess I should be as hateful to all fags because a gay friend molested my little cousin? Your vitriol gets you no points. Especially when you equate fundamental christians with the murderers who kille Mr Shephard. I know alot of fundamental Christians. And a handful of gays. Luckily no one I know is a murderer or as cunfused as you are. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/25 "2003-06-06T05:42:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Deweycheatemundhow_ > There is absolutely nothing in SnoopyFan’s posts in this thread that could plausibly lead to that conclusion. Unless you’ve got something he’s written in another thread (in which case, make with the linky-link), you owe him an apology. No, I don’t. The OP quoted this message from the Virginia-based Family Policy Network, "“the truth that Christ can set them free from the sin of homosexuality,” which **Snoopyfan** approved, saying, “Are you so blinded by your hatred of Christianity that you honestly can’t tell the difference between religious groups who are trying to live what they believe (love people as God loves them, witness, preach the gospel, do good works, etc.) and nutsos like Fred Phelps and his band of merry whackos?” It was not a neutral support of theier First Amendment rights, but an approbation of harrassment. Sorry, **Dewey** , but I refuse to countenance the lie that Christians love me when they call me names. I am SICK of being picked on. Goddammit, how much crap are we supposed to take? ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/26 "2003-06-06T05:49:09Z")
**Apparently your definition of harrasment is looser than mine.** If your definition of harassment is someone saying “Jesus loves you” then you are either _really_ thin skinned or have never experienced real harassment. **Fundies worship Jesus, but they deny his Jewishness.** Are these the same fundies who claim that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God … even the part that discusses Jesus being circumsized 8 days after birth and dedicated to God in the temple? And that other part that talks about the Messiah coming from the house of David? Those fundies? **But they hate actual Jews.** Bullshit. **Bailey Smith, the former head of the Southern Baptist Convention said in 1980, "God does not hear the prayers of Jews."** Your point? Christians believe that only prayers said in the name of Jesus get to God. How is this hatred considering this is what the Bible says? Are they supposed to preface their beliefs by saying “We hope this doesn’t offend anyone, but …” **And the fundie line has always been that unconveted Jews are headed straight for hell.** Um, the “line” is that anyone who dies without having accepted Jesus as their savior is headed straight for hell, not just “unconverted Jews.” How does this constitute a special “hatred” of Jews? **You support antigay bigotry.** I support freedom of speech and religion for everyone … not just people I agree with. You, OTOH, appear to only support the 1st Amendment when you hear something you like. Otherwise you label the speaker as a “minister of evil.” BTW, thanks, **Dewey**. Ya might wanna know tho, I’m a woman 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/27 "2003-06-06T05:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spite \* > \*\ ***gobear** > > I guess I should be as hateful to all fags because a gay friend molested my little cousin? > > Your vitriol gets you no points. Especially when you equate fundamental christians with the murderers who kille Mr Shephard. I know alot of fundamental Christians. And a handful of gays. Luckily no one I know is a murderer or as cunfused as you are. \*\* And do you hate all straights becaue of guys like R. Kelly? Men who have sex with little boys are child molesters, and they don’t represent gay people any more than guys who have sex with little girls represent straight people. Learn the difference. And if you think fundie hate doesn’t contribute to antigay hate crimes, then you are blind ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/28 "2003-06-06T05:55:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I support freedom of speech and religion for everyone … not just people I agree with. You, OTOH, appear to only support the 1st Amendment when you hear something you like. Otherwise you label the speaker as a “minister of evil.” You seem to be confused. You support their right to speak because you agree with their agenda that I and people like me should be hated. OTOH, I support their right to speak while reserving my right to dissent. I really hate liars. Don’t lie about me again. Nazis can march, Klansman can rally, Fundies can preach. . . But not unopposed. . .ever. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/29 "2003-06-06T05:59:02Z")
What? you think only fundamental Christians are homophobic? None of the fundies i know “hate” homosexuals. If they did they wouldn’t be trying to convert you now would they. You have issues with this, I can tell. But your views about Fundi Christians are prolly as screwed up as mine are on red-book-carrying-communitst Chinese. You are greatly uninformed on this issue. And I don’t think you want to debate it. More like rant. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/30 "2003-06-06T06:03:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **No, I don’t. The OP quoted this message from the Virginia-based Family Policy Network, "“the truth that Christ can set them free from the sin of homosexuality,” which Snoopyfan approved, saying, “Are you so blinded by your hatred of Christianity that you honestly can’t tell the difference between religious groups who are trying to live what they believe (love people as God loves them, witness, preach the gospel, do good works, etc.) and nutsos like Fred Phelps and his band of merry whackos?” It was not a neutral support of theier First Amendment rights, but an approbation of harrassment.** Oh, bullshit. I suspect **SnoopyFan** just overlooked that quote in the OP. It’s quite inconsistent with what she’s written in this thread. At the very least, you ought to give her the benefit of the doubt before you accuse her of being pro-bigotry. The rest of **SnoopyFan** ’s posts bear that out. Consider when she writes: “You don’t have to like what they say, **and they certainly don’t have the right to harass you**. But if they wanna call your relationship sin, for whatever reason, that’s their right.” (Emphasis added). And consider the very line you quoted above: she clearly draws a distinction between Christians “living what they believe” (including a list of examples that does NOT include “condemning homosexuality”) and “nutsos like Fred Phelps.” Those who go looking for offense are sure to find it; you’re living proof of the truth of that maxim. **SnoopyFan** has done nothing to justify the slur on her character you so blithely tossed out. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/31 "2003-06-06T06:03:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spite \* > \*\*What? you think only fundamental Christians are homophobic? None of the fundies i know “hate” homosexuals. If they did they wouldn’t be trying to convert you now would they. You have issues with this, I can tell. But your views about Fundi Christians are prolly as screwed up as mine are on red-book-carrying-communitst Chinese. > > You are greatly uninformed on this issue. And I don’t think you want to debate it. More like rant. \*\* Uninformed? We’ll let the Teeming Millions decide, shall we? Yes, Christians “love” me, that’s why they twll me to live a life without love and to repress my deepest feelings. Oh, and how do you explain http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?2003/06/05/3"] this item? A demonstration of Christian love? Oh, and " red-book-carrying-communitst Chinese." BWAHAHAHA. You are about 30 years behind the times. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/32 "2003-06-06T06:07:47Z")
**you agree with their agenda that I and people like me should be hated.** And again I’m wondering who said anything about hatred, besides you. How does telling someone that Jesus loves them constitute hatred? Do you hate everyone who doesn’t live their life the way you, personally, think they should? Of course not. So why is it hatred if someone disagrees with your views? **I am SICK of being picked on.** Are you having a bad night or is this your usual mentality? Are fundies camping out on your doorstep with their guitars singing songs and informing you every time you leave your house that you’re going to hell? Are people spray painting nasty slogans on your house? Been spit on/beat up lately? Those things are harassment, dear. Someone saying that they believe that homosexuality is a sin isn’t harassment, it is simply stating an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/33 "2003-06-06T06:08:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Those who go looking for offense are sure to find it; you’re living proof of the truth of that maxim. SnoopyFan has done nothing to justify the slur on her character you so blithely tossed out. Bullshit yourself. I’m not looking for offense. I want to believe people are my friends. But then I see you blatantly defending antigay bigotry with law school casuistry and my hopes are dashed. Should the gay Dopers simply stand mute every time this subject comes up? It seems that if we defend ourselves we are always “looking for offense.” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/34 "2003-06-06T06:11:12Z")
In fact, **gobear** , let me illustrate how an adult would respond to **SnoopyFan** ’s initial post. It goes like this: “ **SnoopyFan** , the quote in the OP states that Jesus can “set people free” from homsexuality. Your post can be read as endorsing the view of the group mentioned in the OP. Just to clarify, would you please let us know if you agree with the Christian group’s position on homosexuality?” And I’m inviting **SnoopyFan** to answer precisely that question. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/35 "2003-06-06T06:11:42Z")
> [@](#): > > And again I’m wondering who said anything about hatred, besides you. How does telling someone that Jesus loves them constitute hatred? Do you hate everyone who doesn’t live their life the way you, personally, think they should? Of course not. So why is it hatred if someone disagrees with your views? Another lie. The message isn’t “Jesus loves you.” It’s "“the truth that Christ can set them free from the sin of homosexuality.” Didn’t you read the OP? My relationship with my partner isn’t sin, period. That’s nonnegotiable. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/36 "2003-06-06T06:11:55Z")
Excuse me then. Intentionally misinformed, I should have said. That link you cited seems to me about a church who does not want a leader who they think leads an intentional life of sin. Would you go to a family oriented program regularly if you knew the leader liked to look at small children and fantasize about them? He may never touch the children, or break a law regarding child porn, but his personal sexual prefernce is a great bit different than yours, and you prolly wish he would stop or go to whatever damnation you currently subscribe to. “BWAHAHAHA. You are about 30 years behind the times.” ?? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/37 "2003-06-06T06:13:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **I’m not looking for offense. I want to believe people are my friends. But then I see you blatantly defending antigay bigotry with law school casuistry and my hopes are dashed.** Are you drunk? I am not defending antigay bigotry. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/38 "2003-06-06T06:15:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Christians believe that only prayers said in the name of Jesus get to God. So you actually _believe_ that God ignores the prayers of Jews? How enlightened :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > anyone who dies without having accepted Jesus as their savior is headed straight for hell, not just “unconverted Jews.” How does this constitute a special “hatred” of Jews? It doesn’t, it constitutes a hatred of _everybody_. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/39 "2003-06-06T06:17:15Z")
Hey, **gobear** , if you want righteous indignation, go look up my latest Pit thread. Maybe we ought to just learn to “laugh it off” since it’s “no big deal.” :rolleyes: And I really didn’t intend this to become an anti-Christian thread or homosexuality debate, but I should have known… Esprix ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/40 "2003-06-06T06:17:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*In fact, **gobear** , let me illustrate how an adult would respond to **SnoopyFan** ’s initial post. It goes like this: > > “ **SnoopyFan** , the quote in the OP states that Jesus can “set people free” from homsexuality. Your post can be read as endorsing the view of the group mentioned in the OP. Just to clarify, would you please let us know if you agree with the Christian group’s position on homosexuality?” > > And I’m inviting **SnoopyFan** to answer precisely that question. \*\* You read my mind, Dewey, I was about to post about that. If homosexuality is a sin, and I believe it is, and Jesus died to break the bondage of ALL sin, it would follow that yes, I believe Jesus can set people free from homosexuality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894.md?page=3)