# "Special rights" for Christians? Free speech? Airborne spam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894 "2003-06-05T18:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/61 "2003-06-06T06:44:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*I don’t give a shit if you have super-sensitive bigotry radar built into your eyeballs. You should always give somone the benefit of the doubt and provide them with an opportunity to explain themselves before you start casting serious aspersions on their character. \*\* And my aspersions, as you call them, were proven correct. Why don’t you admit that maybe, just maybe, something in the conversation escaped you at first glance? Counselor, you know I respect you, so please do not be offended if I suggest there are rhetorical subtleties that you might miss. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/62 "2003-06-06T06:45:48Z")
**A. You equated homosexulaity with pedophilia.** Shows how well you’ve been reading. That was **Spite**. **B. You called my life and my relationship “sinful.” Who made you a judge?** I’m not the judge. I believe God’s the judge, and I believe the Bible is the word of God. I’m repeating what I read and what I happen to believe. Why do you care so much about my personal convictions? **More to the point, why should your superstition have any effect on how I live?** I didn’t know it had an effect. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/63 "2003-06-06T06:47:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*In this case, yes. \*\* Why? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/64 "2003-06-06T06:49:35Z")
**gobear** , if I may be so bold: Even though your intuition was correct in this case, you might have better made your point by drawing your subject out with a few subtle questions first, giving her enough rope to hang herself as it were. It’s not a question of being right, it’s a question of style. I do understand why the subject would be a hot button for you, though. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/65 "2003-06-06T06:50:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > **A. You equated homosexulaity with pedophilia.** > > Shows how well you’ve been reading. That was **Spite**. > > **B. You called my life and my relationship “sinful.” Who made you a judge?** My apologies. > [@](#): > > I’m not the judge. I believe God’s the judge, and I believe the Bible is the word of God. I’m repeating what I read and what I happen to believe. Why do you care so much about my personal convictions? If it were merely you, I’d care not one bit, but right now, you and your coreligionists are in charge of the country. Politicians who share your views are dismantling Constitutional protections for gay people and doing their best to write their religious convictions into law. > [@](#): > > **More to the point, why should your superstition have any effect on how I live?** > > I didn’t know it had an effect. \*\* See above. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/66 "2003-06-06T06:52:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*Why? \*\* “Some people…if they don’t know, you can’t tell 'em” – Louis Armstrong ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/67 "2003-06-06T06:53:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\ ***gobear** , if I may be so bold: > > Even though your intuition was correct in this case, you might have better made your point by drawing your subject out with a few subtle questions first, giving her enough rope to hang herself as it were. It’s not a question of being right, it’s a question of style. > > I do understand why the subject would be a hot button for you, though. \*\* Point taken, and you’re right; a more leisurely approach would have had greater style. In my defense, it’s late, I’ve had a few Shiraz spritzers, and I’ve had it up to here (you’ll have to envision me pointing to my neck) with antigay rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/68 "2003-06-06T06:55:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*Dewey, thing is, you’re doing the same thing gobear is doing. Sure, gobear prejudged me and flipped out right away while you maintained a cooler head. But the second I say something that you do disagree with, I’m suddenly an untouchable. How is that expressing the “tolerance” you expect me to display? \*\* This has nothing to do with tolerance. I strongly support your right to hold whatever views you wish, and to express those views in a non-harassing manner, constrained only by constitutionally permissible restrictions (e.g., FAA regs). But tolerance of your particular worldview does not equate to a requirement that I endorse that worldview, or even to sit idly by while you express it. I’ve got first amendment rights, too, after all, and I’m free to comment on the validity of your worldview. And I think the worldview that says homosexuality is hopelessly incompatible with Christianity is a vile one. I think bigotry is an accurate label to affix to that worldview. A belief that your viewpoint is flat-out wrong is part of _my_ worldview, and tolerance does not prevent me from expressing that. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/69 "2003-06-06T06:57:23Z")
**If it were merely you, I’d care not one bit, but right now, you and your coreligionists are in charge of the country. Politicians who share your views are dismantling Constitutional protections for gay people and doing their best to write their religious convictions into law.** Okay, this is a fair answer and I can see your point. However … 1. When you say “coreligionists” who exactly are you referring to? Or do you _really_ just mean conservatives? 2. What Constitutional protections have been dismantled? What rights did you have as a gay person when Clinton was in office that you lost when Bush became President? I am not up on legislation concerning gays but I figure you are, so enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/70 "2003-06-06T07:00:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > This has nothing to do with tolerance. I strongly support your right to hold whatever views you wish, and to express those views in a non-harassing manner, constrained only by constitutionally permissible restrictions (e.g., FAA regs). > > But tolerance of your particular worldview does not equate to a requirement that I endorse that worldview, or even to sit idly by while you express it. I’ve got first amendment rights, too, after all, and I’m free to comment on the validity of your worldview. > > And I think the worldview that says homosexuality is hopelessly incompatible with Christianity is a vile one. I think bigotry is an accurate label to affix to that worldview. A belief that your viewpoint is flat-out wrong is part of _my_ worldview, and tolerance does not prevent me from expressing that. **Dewey** , that was beautiful. Striking, concise, precise and thoughtful. I’ve got half a mind to go out and get arrested for something, just so I can see you defend me in court. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/71 "2003-06-06T07:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*And my aspersions, as you call them, were proven correct. Why don’t you admit that maybe, just maybe, something in the conversation escaped you at first glance? Counselor, you know I respect you, so please do not be offended if I suggest there are rhetorical subtleties that you might miss. \*\* Once more, with feeling: I don’t give a damn if your bigotry radar is the most finely-honed bit of homophobe detection equipment ever produced. You owe it to people to give them the benefit of the doubt and to provide them with a chance to explain themselves _before_ you toss out accusations. You ended up being correct in this case, but _you might not have_. Have the common courtesy to consider that possibility, and stay your tongue until you’ve afforded the accused the chance to defend him or herself. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/72 "2003-06-06T07:03:20Z")
**Dewey,** okay, good explanation. However: **A belief that your viewpoint is flat-out wrong is part of my worldview** So can I call you a bigot for labeling my worldview “vile” and flat-out wrong? Not that I would. I’m not into namecalling. I was just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/73 "2003-06-06T07:06:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*Why? \*\* In a nutshell? Because it makes people sinners based on who they are, rather than what they do. (And spare me the homosexuals OK - homosexual acts not OK line.) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/74 "2003-06-06T07:06:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > If it were merely you, I’d care not one bit, but right now, you and your coreligionists are in charge of the country. Politicians who share your views are dismantling Constitutional protections for gay people and doing their best to write their religious convictions into law. > > Okay, this is a fair answer and I can see your point. > > However … > > 1. When you say “coreligionists” who exactly are you referring to? Or do you _really_ just mean conservatives? The Christian right, obviously. > [@](#): > > 1. What Constitutional protections have been dismantled? What rights did you have as a gay person when Clinton was in office that you lost when Bush became President? I am not up on legislation concerning gays but I figure you are, so enlighten me. \*\* Well, for one thing, we lost all advocacy. The president won’t acknowledge Gay republicans, let alone any other gay groups. Gay people have no voice in this administration. Bush has fought insurance for dependents of gay federal workers (which married hetero federal employees get) and has generally created a hostile atmosphere for gay federal employees. Mind, Clinton signed DOMA, so he’s not exactly a friend of gay folks either. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/75 "2003-06-06T07:08:06Z")
**Because it makes people sinners based on who they are** Um, duh. Human = sinner. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/76 "2003-06-06T07:08:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*So can I call you a bigot for labeling my worldview “vile” and flat-out wrong? \*\* You can call it whatever you want; that’s your first amendment right. And of course I’m free to say that your characterization of my view is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/77 "2003-06-06T07:09:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*Once more, with feeling: I don’t give a damn if your bigotry radar is the most finely-honed bit of homophobe detection equipment ever produced. You owe it to people to give them the benefit of the doubt and to provide them with a chance to explain themselves _before_ you toss out accusations. > > You ended up being correct in this case, but _you might not have_. Have the common courtesy to consider that possibility, and stay your tongue until you’ve afforded the accused the chance to defend him or herself. \*\* Point taken, but in this case the accused had already clearly incriminated herself. In any event, it’s 3 am here and I’m going to bed. We’ll discuss this further in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/78 "2003-06-06T07:10:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*Um, duh. > > Human = sinner. \*\* :rolleyes: Nice dodge. Here, let me clarify: your view says that the mere fact that one is homosexual is, in and of itself, sinful. It equates a sin to a state of being rather than to an conscious action. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/79 "2003-06-06T07:11:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*The Christian right, obviously. > > Well, for one thing, we lost all advocacy. The president won’t acknowledge Gay republicans, let alone any other gay groups. Gay people have no voice in this administration. Bush has fought insurance for dependents of gay federal workers (which married hetero federal employees get) and has generally > created a hostile atmosphere for gay federal employees. > Mind, Clinton signed DOMA, so he’s not exactly a friend of gay folks either. \*\* [www.deanforamerica.com](http://www.deanforamerica.com)😉 ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/80 "2003-06-06T07:21:17Z")
**The Christian right, obviously.** See, that’s where assumptions will get you into trouble. Christian doesn’t automatically mean Republican and it certainly doesn’t mean automatic membership in the Religious Right. **The president won’t acknowledge Gay republicans, let alone any other gay groups.** Have gay groups asked for an audience with him and he refused? **Bush has fought insurance for dependents of gay federal workers** I’m assuming you mean partners here and not children. Until civil unions/gay marriage/whatever you wanna call it are legalized, what obligation does the government have to provide the partners of gay employees with insurance? Sure, it’d be nice, but it’s a cost … and then we have the question of “okay, if they’re not allowed to marry, at least how long do they have to live together before they can get benefits?” With the way people of all orientations are shacking up these days, surely you are talking about committed couples and not couples who have lived together for a mere 6 weeks. In that case, what’s “committed?” A year of continuous living together? I’m surprised they give insurance to the spouses of heteros, frankly, it seems as though more and more jobs will only provide insurance for their employee, not their spouse/kids. **and has generally created a hostile atmosphere for gay federal employees.** Cite? When you say “hostile atmosphere” are you saying gay federal workers are being persecuted on the job/fired for no reason, etc., or do you mean something else? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894.md?page=5)