# "Special rights" for Christians? Free speech? Airborne spam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894 "2003-06-05T18:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/121 "2003-06-06T22:38:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*I feel most Christians believe in the exclusivity of the Christian message not necessarily because of its content, but simply because they’ve never been seriously taught any other religious or philosophical postion, except for Atheism. \*\* I don’t disagree. I wasn’t trying to trace the origins of the belief, I was trying to explain why that belief could be rationally held by a reasonable and compassionate person. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/122 "2003-06-06T22:40:54Z")
> [@](#): > > The Virginia-based Family Policy Network seeks to preach during Gay Days “the truth that Christ can set them free from the sin of homosexuality,” Anybody own a plane? Let’s fly one over their church with a banner that says “The power of homosexuality can free you from Jesus Christ.” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/123 "2003-06-06T23:03:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Same ole same ole “God’s plan of salvation is hateful and cruel” garbage. It’s so hateful, don’tcha know? > :rolleyes: You still don’t get it I see. Maybe someday. \*\* So explain it! – that’s what I was encouraging you to do, a month or two ago. 🙂 **Dewey** ’s given it a pretty good shot, but he’s not conveying the _flavor_ the way you can (and I’m serious there; I do respect your ability to witness when you’re witnessing _for_ and not sounding judgmental – as we’ve discussed in the past). _Tell_ them about God’s justice and mercy as you see it. I would, but I’m not an evangelical, as you know – and while I believe that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, I believe that He works in a much broader way than you do, so I won’t have the impact you would. And, BTW, we’ve gone round and round on the sinfulness of homosexuality before – but what do you see as the _hope_ for folks like **gobear** and **Esprix**? If one of them asked you, “What must I do to be saved?” what would be your answer? It’s not my intent to put you on the spot in the sense of setting you up for flaming – but it is my intent to put you on the spot in the sense of asking you to witness for our Lord, to speak from your perspective on God’s love for his gay children, and not of their sin but of His salvation. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/124 "2003-06-06T23:36:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*1.) “abhorition” is not a word. > > 2.) Homosexuality is neither abhorent nor an aberration. > > 3.) Homosexuality is in **no way** related to, or analogous to pedophilia. > > 4.) We all know that homosexuality was once illegal. What is your point? We once had slavery too. We have evolved as a country, or at least some of us have. \*\* 1.) I corrected my mistake. What is your hangup on it? 2.) Your (and my) opinion on the niceties of homosexuality does not define what society as a whole, or a specific religion thinks about the issue. So what is your point? 3.)Like I said, insisiting it aint so doesn’t change the facts about the views of those we are discussing. [quote] Again, homosexuality has as much relation to child molestation as heterosexuality does. [quote] To **goebear’s** link about church members leaving because their leader was gay, I submitted my view on their views as, homosexuality has as much relation to heterosexuality as pedophelia does to homosexuality to him. Homosexuality can be related to and analogous to pedophelia, but I never said that it was a rule. And my comparison was the analogy of when it can be. 4.)What?? What does slavery have to do with it? The comparison of sexual behaviors and societies views of such has nothing to do with slavery. And your strawman is not appreciated. **MrVisible** > [@](#): > > Bingo. Right there. There is no victim in homosexuality, there is no-one hurt. Comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is like comparing dancing to assault and battery. It is a sexual aberration to many, just as homosexuality is such to many, esp. Christian fundies. I am sure a pedophile would disagree with your distinction as much as you do the fundies. As for the rest of your post, and **mhendo’s** , I think you just repeated each other, and DtC. I _never_ said homosexuality was like pedophelia. I made the comparison on how they where viewed. Your opinion may be that it is not your “choice”. A heterosexual who has had homosexual relations, or ever even contemplated such may disagree with you. Just as you may disagree with a pedophile that he can be “cured”, if you know what I mean. The comarison is there. I never said, or meant that they where the same. I hpe I have killed that strawman. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/125 "2003-06-07T00:42:35Z")
Okay, **Spite**. How about explaining what your point is, maybe? We’ve got a really good sense of your attitude, but so far it seems pretty content-free. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/126 "2003-06-07T00:59:31Z")
The only ones with an attitude seem to be you and a few others who want to ridicule grammer instead of debating the topic at hand. If you can’t put read words together that form a cognative sentence, that’s your issue not mine. I have better things t do than play these childish games. Go troll someone else. mmkay? ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/127 "2003-06-07T01:02:24Z")
Yeah, if I can’t understand your made-up words, it’s obviously my problem. How connipituous. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/128 "2003-06-07T01:05:12Z")
There is a pit we can take this to. Otherwise, unless you have something pertinant to the discussion to say, go away. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/129 "2003-06-07T01:26:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spite \* > \*\*There is a pit we can take this to. Otherwise, unless you have something pertinant to the discussion to say, go away. \*\* Please, please, take your own advice. You have stated your opinion; most people here seem to disagree with you. Whether you believe that to be an honest reflection of the world at large is of course up to you to decide. But I see no reason to continue arguing a point which seems to exist solely to cause others distress. You have stated your case; now leave it alone. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/130 "2003-06-07T01:28:12Z")
I believe I invited you to clarify your position earlier. Any chance you’ll do so? ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/131 "2003-06-07T01:45:40Z")
I feel that I need to apologize to the rest of the posters in this thread. I’m sorry that my conversation with **Spite** , if it can be called such, has dominated this page. I feel that the ideas that **Spite** is trying to defend need to be challenged whenever they’re brought up. Additionally, I like to try and ascertain if the indivuduals espousing these ideas can actually reconsider their position once they’ve been shown just how weak the bases for their reasoning are. And if they can’t seem to reconsider them, I like to keep them talking, so the whole world can see what kind of people hold these opinions. It’s usually a fascinating display. Once again, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/132 "2003-06-07T02:08:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by leander \* > \*\*Please, please, take your own advice. > > You have stated your opinion; most people here seem to disagree with you. Whether you believe that to be an honest reflection of the world at large is of course up to you to decide. > > \*\* Umm, no, people have misrepresented what they think my opinion is, and I explained it. They seem to think I equate pedophilia with homosexuality. When what I said was that many people differentiate homosexuality and heterosexuality the way homosexuals, and others, discriminate between homosexuality and pedophelia. The only ‘difference of opinion’ I have gotten is that pedophelia and homosexuality are not the same. That is not my arguemnt. And is a strawman. > [@](#): > > But I see no reason to continue arguing a point which seems to exist solely to cause others distress. I appologize if what I said causes you (or anyone) distress. But saying shut up will not change anything. If you disagree then say so. Don’t do as others and use a strawman to refute an argument you do not agree with. > [@](#): > > You have stated your case; now leave it alone. 😕 This is not IMHO or the like. This is great debates. Where you state your case and others debate it. Even if it hurts your sensibilities. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/133 "2003-06-07T03:11:09Z")
I have grown to _seriously_ detest these _debates_; the two sides as represented are _fundamentally_ incompatible, and as such are inherently incapable of consensus. Truth in advertising would demand we rename them _shouting matches_. And why do we continue this hateful dialogue, incurring ever more resentment, bitterness and hostility which can only lead to more of the same. This is wasted effort. Worse than wasted, as it’s ultimately counter-productive. If I believe that homosexual behavior is a sin, but you do not, what have we achieved but a standoff? Neither of us will budge, if each view is sincerely held. How, then, do I achieve _anything_ by yelling at you? The answer, I don’t. So, I no longer do. Let me tell you what I see when I scan the thread titles of this board. I see anger, jealousy, resentment, hatred and more. Guess what? Most Christians will undoubtedly identify these also as sins. All sin is sin. It matters not whether your sin is one of these, or something left out of this conversation. Sin is what separates man from God. All sin. I don’t look around and single any out as the be-all and end-all of sin personified. It matters not a whit to me. I’m more than thankful I don’t have to judge either the issue or the person. You cannot hound a single person into heaven. Has any one ever been hounded into heaven? ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/134 "2003-06-07T03:18:30Z")
**NaSultainne** , the reason I participate in these threads is that my life depends on it. If the kind of ignorant bigotry that is espoused by the straight supremacists is allowed to stand uncontested, more people might believe it has any basis in fact. More hatred towards homosexuals may be expressed in society. And from there it’s only a matter of time until we’re rounded up and killed again. Nobody deserves to be treated the way gay people are in this society right now. I’m working to make things better, here and in the real world. What are you doing? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/135 "2003-06-07T03:21:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > You cannot hound a single person into heaven. > > Has any one ever been hounded into heaven? Well you could ask [Francis Thompson](http://www.mcs.drexel.edu/~gbrandal/Illum_html/hound.html). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/136 "2003-06-07T03:24:29Z")
My family always brought me up to believe that something like homosexuality is that person’s and that person’s alone business. Seriously-even if it WAS a sin-it isn’t affecting me. It’s only affecting those who have gay sex or whatever. And so it’s for THEM to worry about-not the rest of us. So, even if you DO think it’s a sin, hey-why do you care so much? So is taking the Lord’s name in vain, and a HELL of a lot more people do that-so why not do flyovers about people who yell, Jesus Christ! all the time? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/137 "2003-06-07T03:24:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\ ***Diogenes** : Fair enough. I’m not trying to play apologist for Christian doctrine, though I know it certainly sounds that way. But let me add this: > > Christian doctrine holds that eternal separation from God is a consequence of man’s innate imperfection. It is, in a very real way, the natural order of things – the default condition of mankind. I think it is something of a mischaracterization to say that Hell is a “penalty” for rejecting the salvation message. Christianity holds that mankind is drowning in a sea of his own imperfection, and that God has tossed him a life preserver in the form of Jesus Christ. It is somewhat incorrect the characterize God as “penalizing” those who elect not to grab hold. > > I realize that’s a slender distinction, one that doesn’t change actual spiritual outcomes, but I do think it changes the tone of the doctrine. And it’s on that basis that I think perfectly reasonable, non-hating, non-fundamentalist people can legitimately believe in the exclusivity of Christ’s salvation. > > Like I said, I’m not trying to be an apologist for the Christian faith. There are certainly difficult philosophical questions presented by Christian doctrine – why the need to nail your kid to a tree in the first place? Why can’t God just snap his fingers and remove mankind’s imperfection, at least for those who were basically decent folks? Why the need for religious experience at all? But I do think Christianity gets short shrift around here and that its traditional doctrines are not so bereft of reasonableness and compassion as many make them out to be. I think it a mistake to characterize those doctrines, undistorted by fundamentalism, as “hateful.” YMMV, of course. \*\* I understand the distinction, and I understand that some people see this as lamentable and feel a sincere sense of urgency in trying to “save souls.” I even think that **H4E** has a good heart down there somewhere. You don’t have to look far, though, for others who are simply driven by hostility and contempt (and that is not unique to Christianity). I don’t think we have much beef that a narrow salvationist doctrine which categorically excludes most of humanity regardless of individual virtue is a doctrine which requires examination, clarification, expansion or even revision. I think most Christians do this. **Polycarp** is just one example of many on this board who quite vehemently disagree with the view that any particular group is automatically disqualified from salvation, and no one would say that he isn’t a Christian to the core. There are ways to do this without surrendering a belief in Christ as a world Savior, many of these avenues are quite ingenious in maintaining theological consistency. **Libertarian** , for instance, simply defines Christ as Love, and whoever accepts love accepts Christ. This at once Christologically consistent and all inclusive. Christ is the only way, but “Christ” is more than just image or a belief. Going way back to my original remark to **Snoopyfan** , the remark which set this whole sub-discussion off, it was a flippant, facetious remark made out of annoyance to a poster who I felt was espousing a gratuitously noxious viewpoint. I never intended it to be applicable to anyone but the poster I aimed it at. I certainly meant no slur on Christianity as a whole, and I think that, as vituperative and gratuitous as I may be on some subjects (especially politics), I have always tried to be respectful of religion. That is my academic background and that is my favorite topic of discussion on this board. I apologize for leaving the door open to any impression that I was characterizing Christianity, as a religion or Christians _in toto_ as hateful. I know damn well that most of them aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/138 "2003-06-07T03:40:59Z")
**NaSultainne** , if all anyone did was _believe_ it was a sin, there wouldn’t be much of an issue. The problem is when some people want to codify that belief into law, or legalize discrimination based solely on religious opinion. It’s a problem if two people are not allowed the same benefits of a civil union as two other people because of religious opinion There are people in this world who still think that interracial marriage is a sin, and who are offended at seeing interracial couples in public. Are they allowed to have this opinion? Yes. Do we care? No. Are we going to prohibit interracial marriage so as not to upset them? Of course not. Religious beliefs are fine as long as they are not enforced as law. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/139 "2003-06-07T03:46:03Z")
I should add that I’m not implying that you, personally hold any beliefs in religious discrimination, **NaSultainne** …actually, I have no idea what you support legally, I was just using your post for a springboard about belief vs. legal policy. I’m not trying to suggest anything about your own character. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894/140 "2003-06-07T04:08:59Z")
**MrVisible** , I have tremendous empathy for you. And you speak rightly; no one, for any reason at all, should be in fear of harm to one’s self. I have two sons, one teen, one pre-teen. I have raised them to be both kind and considerate to all around them. And I’m tough on my kids. This isn’t some simple, placid, mild point I make in their hearing, but, this is where it must start. I would no more tolerate abuse of my kids than I would tolerate abuse of others in my presence, and this has no specific application to any position on any subject. People are all due a basic level of courtesy and respect. **Gobear** , lovely poem. I particularly loved these lines: For, though I knew His Love Who followed, Yet was I sore adread Lest, having Him, I must have naught beside. I hear the echo of truth in this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/special-rights-for-christians-free-speech-airborne-spam/179894.md?page=8)