# spectrum, I don't get it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 26, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280 "2004-06-26T04:31:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/21 "2004-06-26T16:59:45Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > There are a billion and a half topics on which I don’t give a fuck if people disagree with me or not. Name one. I’ve seen you fly off the handle about several much less weighty topics than this one. I agree with you about this one, mind. I just wish you’d be able to see what topics are worth getting angry about and what aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/22 "2004-06-26T19:35:42Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > You know, on one hand I regard **spectrum** ’s approach to be more than a little counterproductive. > > On the other hand, like him, I’m sick of people treating my human rights as a topic about which reasonable people can disagree. Dammit, **matt**. Every time I think I’ve written an eloquent and thoughtful response to a thread, you come along and manage to sum up everything I’ve thought in one sentence. There’ve been many times when I’ve thought **spectrum** was flying off the handle and launching unwarranted attacks on people. But then I listen to what’s being said outside this message board, on webpages like the one indirectly linked to from the thread in the OP, and I’m filled with so much rage I think **spectrum** is showing considerable _restraint_! I invite anybody to go back through and read some of these posts again. Like the story about **spectrum** ’s friend who was _electrocuted_ to “cure” him of his homosexuality, at the request of the friend’s parents. Or the stories of posters here who’ve been beaten up just because they’re homosexual. Or the stories of posters who’ve lost close friends to AIDS and have to hear people on here say that it was just a “gay problem” and that they had it coming for being careless. And then realize that these aren’t just isolated incidents in some distant past; we’re still living in a society that fosters this. All the gay-bashers and the people with “God Hates Fags” picket signs aren’t really the problem. They horrible, but they’re relatively few and can be controlled if society lets them know clearly that that is unacceptable. The problem is the people who can dismiss those types as bigots or homophobes, but _still_ treat me as if I’m a second-class citizen. Who can pat themselves on the back for saying things like, “I don’t have a problem with homosexuals, just homosexual _behavior_.” Who can look at the efforts of the President of the United States to deny a portion of the population the right to marry the person they love, and not see it as outrageous, but as a political issue that warrants debate. Who can say stuff like this: > [@bodswood](#): > > I’m not homosexual either and I do have prejudice against homosexuals (both at the icky level and in other ways). If for example, my daughter became (or perhaps declared herself to be a lesbian is a more accurate way of putting it if I want to be PC) a lesbian, I would be devastated. > > Of course, as a Christian (I’m one) some might say that that prejudice isn’t prejudice but a kind of right judgement. But I’m not primarily referring to the Biblical position and teh difficulties (yes, difficulties) which that puts thinking people in. The people who can tell me to my face that I’m wrong and I’m “icky,” and not only do they not understand that what they’re saying is offensive, they believe that what they’re saying is Right and Just. That they’re _entitled_ to think these things because of their religion. The people who say “I don’t have a problem with homosexuals, just homosexual _behavior_.” And who can say it in the guise of reasonable, thoughtful, even compassionate speech, to hide even from themselves how hateful the things are that they’re really saying. Again, it’s simply not up for debate or theological study or attempts to solve “the gay problem.” We’re entitled to the same rights and the same societal respect that every heterosexual person is entitled to from birth. No religion, no government, no “debate” about whether it’s a “choice” can change that. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/23 "2004-06-26T19:51:58Z")
posted by gum > [@](#): > > _How would I feel when people are \* debating \* about me?_ Originally posted by **SolGrundy** > [@](#): > > _Again, it’s simply not up for debate or theological study or attempts to solve “the gay problem.” We’re entitled to the same rights and the same societal respect that every heterosexual person is entitled to from birth. No religion, no government, no “debate” about whether it’s a “choice” can change that._ Yes. I agree. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/24 "2004-06-26T19:58:39Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Again, it’s simply not up for debate or theological study or attempts to solve “the gay problem.” We’re entitled to the same rights and the same societal respect that every heterosexual person is entitled to from birth. No religion, no government, no “debate” about whether it’s a “choice” can change that. I’ve seen someone argue in a letter to the editor that if we can identify whatever makes people gay while they are still in the womb, all gay fetuses will either be “cured” with hormones or aborted so we shouldn’t worry about giving gays rights now, because in the future there won’t _be_ any more gays! The evil of that argument is breathtaking. Not even the most racist segregationists in the south argued to eliminate all black people or force them to bleach their skin white. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/25 "2004-06-26T20:17:10Z")
aw, shit, **Blalron**. Are you serious? Someone wrote that? That’s indeed breathtakingly evil. I’m beginning to understand **spectrum** more and more. What a lot of ignorant, hateful people this world still has. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/26 "2004-06-26T20:51:15Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > The people who can tell me to my face that I’m wrong and I’m “icky,” and not only do they not understand that what they’re saying is offensive, they believe that what they’re saying is Right and Just. Well, I’m with you on everything, but I want to point out that “icky” is a personal feeling, and many people find many things “icky.” I’m “icky” to some people (because I’m a fat chick), my sister is “icky” to some people (because she has had a leg amputated), and my mom is probably “icky” because she’s an old broad. It hurts, but people’s personal feelings of “icky” are never, ever going to go away, and personally, I don’t think we should attempt to dictate what others can and cannot find “icky.” (Not that this was your point.) The big issue is that most people who feel something is “icky” aren’t trying to deny that “icky” person their human rights. It isn’t “icky” that is the real problem, it’s everything else. (Like denying human rights, or treating people like crap.) This is just a side comment and a pretty trivial one at that, and certainly not an attempt to dilute your point. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/27 "2004-06-26T21:14:51Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > Well, I’m with you on everything, but I want to point out that “icky” is a personal feeling, and many people find many things “icky.” I’m “icky” to some people (because I’m a fat chick), my sister is “icky” to some people (because she has had a leg amputated), and my mom is probably “icky” because she’s an old broad. It hurts, but people’s personal feelings of “icky” are never, ever going to go away, and personally, I don’t think we should attempt to dictate what others can and cannot find “icky.” (Not that this was your point.) The big issue is that most people who feel something is “icky” aren’t trying to deny that “icky” person their human rights. It isn’t “icky” that is the real problem, it’s everything else. (Like denying human rights, or treating people like crap.) I understand your point entirely, and agree to a certain extent. I’ve heard it before: “Girls on girls is okay, but guys on guys is just gross.” Plenty of people have problems with interracial relationships, too, and find the thought of a black man and a white woman together to be “icky.” But as you say, that’s dodging the issue. I’m not trying to change what people do and don’t find attractive; that’s kind of the whole point. It shouldn’t be anyone else’s business who a person does and doesn’t find attractive. Godwin’s Law says you can’t have an argument on the internet for too long before someone mentions Hitler. There’s something of an adjunct to that: you can’t have a thread about anything regarding homosexuality for too long before someone mentions blow jobs or anal sex. I can _totally_ understand how someone, especially someone raised in a conservative environment, could be uncomfortable talking or thinking about gay sex. But I’m not talking about sex! That should still be private! If a straight friend mentions his wife or her husband, I don’t immediately start picturing the two of them going at it. But somehow, it’s acceptable to think the same thing about me and to be uncomfortable with it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/28 "2004-06-26T21:31:20Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’ve seen someone argue in a letter to the editor that if we can identify whatever makes people gay while they are still in the womb, all gay fetuses will either be “cured” with hormones or aborted so we shouldn’t worry about giving gays rights now, because in the future there won’t _be_ any more gays! The evil of that argument is breathtaking. Not even the most racist segregationists in the south argued to eliminate all black people or force them to bleach their skin white. And from there comes the question they always used to ask the girls in sex ed: If you knew your child would be born deformed/retarded/with Down’s syndrome/some other untreatable condition, would you have an abortion rather than put a child, someone you love dearly, through that misery? And no, I’m not saying that homosexuality is a deformation, but it’s undeniable that many people, even some educated and otherwise not-ignorant people, equate the two. Every person in the entire world is ignorant – because we’re all ignorant of something. We all have prejudices, we all have flaws, we all have subjects about which our breadth of knowledge ain’t that great. Understand please that even a bright, reasonable, rational individual might disagree with you. They are not EVIL, they’re just _wrong_, and yelling all the time that they’re horrible homophobic bastards who hate you and hate equality and hate America is kind of on par with saying that gays are going to hell, so you’d best stop that man-sex. It ain’t gonna work. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/29 "2004-06-26T21:58:09Z")
SolGundy, yes, I totally understand what you’re getting at. For the record, I was raised in a “conservative” (sort of) environment, so yes, if pressed, I would confess that thinking about some gay sex acts would be . . . odd. Foreign. But I don’t think about them. TMI. Don’t want to know much about what other people are doing between the sheets—straight, gay, or bi. TMI. TMI. TMI! Don’t want to know! I have some wonderful friends who are gay and I manage quite nicely to not think about their sex lives, just as I do with all my straight friends. That’s what works for me. > [@Little Plastic Ninja](#): > > We all have prejudices, we all have flaws, we all have subjects about which our breadth of knowledge ain’t that great. Understand please that even a bright, reasonable, rational individual might disagree with you. They are not EVIL, they’re just _wrong_, and yelling all the time that they’re horrible homophobic bastards who hate you and hate equality and hate America is kind of on par with saying that gays are going to hell, so you’d best stop that man-sex. > > It ain’t gonna work. Good point. I know several people who have some noticeable prejudices. I know I have mine too—we’ve all got them. My dad, who I loved dearly, had a few prejudices. They were grievous to the rest of the family, because he was otherwise a pretty good guy. I don’t know why he got these prejudices stuck in his head, but he did. He usually just said stuff—didn’t do much other than shoot off his mouth at home—but it was bullshit and was a definite chink in his armor. Because otherwise, he was a good guy and a great dad. So why did he have to be so irrational about a few of these issues? We couldn’t figure it out. (Fortunately, my mom was _brilliant_ at counterbalancing his bullshit, and he let her do it without too much argument, so I suspect that subconsciously, he knew he was full of shit too.) Another friend of mine is also not a bad guy, and he’s got his own set of prejudices. (I’m not saying what they are, because that’s beside the point.) He’s from a different kind of background and “culture” and has had different experiences—experiences I’m not trying to discount or dismiss. I have tried to disagree with my friend on some of these issues, but he’s fixed in his opinions, just like most of us are. I _think_ I explained to him how I felt (and why I disagreed with him) when I told him how much I loved my dad, but that my dad was wrong and mistaken about his (my dad’s) prejudices. My friend seemed to comprehend what I was saying, and seemed to accept my point: that I wasn’t calling him an evil asshole, I was saying that while I respected him and felt good things about him (like I did about my dad), I also felt that he was mistaken and wrong about these particular issues. I am not saying that I made my friend “see the light.” I don’t think it’s my job to “convert” him to my way of thinking. I don’t think _any_ of us appreciate being the target of a “conversion attempt,” no matter how well-meaning. I’m just saying that had I shrieked at him and called him names, we’d probably not be talking now, particularly about these certain touchy issues. And I think it’s better for both of us if we remain civil about these topics and be able to talk about them, rather than screaming at each other and building up ill-will. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/30 "2004-06-26T22:13:15Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > I’m just saying that had I shrieked at him and called him names, we’d probably not be talking now, particularly about these certain touchy issues. And I think it’s better for both of us if we remain civil about these topics and be able to talk about them, rather than screaming at each other and building up ill-will. That’s the reason that I started this thread, of course- to say that. Upon further review, though, I realized something else. I’m holding **spectrum** to a standard that I am 99% sure I would never come close to realizing myself. Certainly, it would be best if the reaction was always in exact proportion to the offense, but I promise you, were it me reacting, I’d run out of restraint in a matter of days. I still think it would be better if **spectrum** did like I originally advised, but I had no standing to give the advice in the first place. I’ll take him to task for his composure right after I live through a similar experience and maintain my own. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/31 "2004-06-26T23:23:09Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > But the issue of reparative torture is beyond the pale. No decent person can support this practice, no one with a soul can stand by it, and if standing up against what, if accepted widely, would be a campaign to effectively obliterate homosexuals makes me evil, then so be it. I’d rather be an asshole and right than lower myself to the point where I can see eye to eye with the kind of person who supports the reparative abuse industry. Wait, wait, wait. Firstly, I’m a queer agnostic liberal who also doesn’t support reparative therapy. But “no one with a soul can stand by it”? Isn’t that going a little far? After all, the motive for reparative therapy is this: (1) The Bible states that being queer is a sin (and yes, it does seem to say that, according to what I’ve seen.) (2) You must give up sin to achieve salvation (not that you have to live sin-free, but you _do_ have to make a good-faith effort, at least according to most Christians.) (3) God wants to forgive everyone. Therefore, he wouldn’t create someone so inherently flawed that they can’t be saved. There _must_ be some way to help these people beyond telling them to stop having sex. Now, it’s a flawed, stupid conclusion, no question. And I remember a while back the poster-child of the ex-gay movement being caught in a gay bar, so as we can see, reparative therapy is probably not highly effective. But these people are assuming that being gay is not just some simple choice, as so many people claim. So, since gay Christians are troubled by their urges, we can tell from the Bible that they can be cured. These Christian groups do these fucked-up things out of love, as twisted as the love in question is. And gay Christians who are so deluded as to make the choice _themselves_ (no, parents should not be able to make it for their children) ought to have the option, IMHO. What makes me upset about this statement, and occasionally other ones you make, is that it’s really indicting a huge group of people who, while their views may be someone upsetting to me, have them based on generally loving and caring ideals. To say that someone who has this view has no soul is not just inflammatory, it’s incredibly, deeply hurtful. They are trying their best, and they are doing so out of positive emotions. It’s just that they’ve interpreted their Bible in a way that leads to really fucked-up conclusions. It’s not because they’re evil, or soulless, or anything else. I’m mad as hell about a lot of this shit, too. I’m livid as I write this that the Republicans are working out a way to enshrine an insult to me and a bigoted attempt to repress me in the fundamental law of the land. I’m filled with white-hot rage at attempts to stop gay people from adopting children, or teaching school, or being able to have a job without fear of discrimination. But even if their ideas are bad, and wrong, and make me angry, it doesn’t make it fair for me to assign them motives, or declare them to be evil, or anything else. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/32 "2004-06-26T23:41:31Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > Certainly, it would be best if the reaction was always in exact proportion to the offense, but I promise you, were it me reacting, I’d run out of restraint in a matter of days. I still think it would be better if **spectrum** did like I originally advised, but I had no standing to give the advice in the first place. This is a good point, and one worth remembering. I’m sure I’d get weary very quickly of trying to “justify” my existence as a fat chick (though come to think of it, there are times when I have had to do that) and I’m sure my sister would get equally weary of constantly having to justify being a peg-leg chick. (Her term—“peg-leg.” We all have a peculiar sense of humor.) But I also am aware that many, many gay people have dealt with shit, just like **spectrum** , and they are not behaving in the way that he is. There’s a reason for that. Perhaps it’s not for you or me to say why. But the fact still remains: many gay people have suffered, and they’re not all on exactly the same page as he is. I know that when I was younger I probably let off “uncomfortable-this-is-_weird_” vibes amongst my gay acquaintences. As a youngster I was very sheltered (in some ways) and was fed a lot of bullshit about homosexuality and gay people. I cringe to think of it now. Anyway, I guess my gay acquaintences (some of who are life-long friends now) could have chosen to brand me as an evil homophobe and written me off forever. But they didn’t. They were cool and laid-back people. Because of that, I got over some of my sheltered, mistaken views and am what I am now. A “It’s-none-of-my-business I-just-want-everyone-to-be-happy” kind of person. I daresay many other people who were raised in equally ignorant or sheltered environments made a similar transition—and this transition was made easier by the gay people that they met. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/33 "2004-06-26T23:52:16Z")
Basically, it seems to me that people aren’t saying, “Well, **spectrum** should be a perfect nice little gay boy, so other people won’t get bad ideas about gays.”. They’re saying, “ **spectrum** , the idea is not to start spitting on people, but while you’re fighting them, try to win them over to your side.” Convince them that they’re wrong. You can’t do that by screaming at them. And believe, I do understand why you feel the need to. Fight back by standing up for your rights-AND by trying to educate others. It’s the only way. Sadly, it’s also not an easy or quick way, but nothing ever is in life. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/34 "2004-06-27T00:06:21Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > —and this transition was made easier by the gay people that they met. This has certainly been the case with me. I grew up in an era when gay people were pretty much invisible, and of course once the gay rights movement began and outrageous gay rights marches began to take place, I pretty much gravitated from not really caring to a certain amount of hostility. However, since becoming interested in art and coming into contact with the gay people I’ve met within that environment, I’ve found that most of the gay people I’ve met have been pretty sweet, gentle, good-natured and highly intelligent people. My experience with them as they are, and learning about their positive qualities, is what changed my perception of gay people, not outrageous behavior or angry hostility. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/35 "2004-06-27T00:28:47Z")
It’s tempting to emulate **spectrum** and let one’s justifiable outrage at mindless bigotry consume oneself, but that’s destructive, not transformative. If the regrettable outpouring of unmerited grief over the death of a bad president has taught me anything, it’s that people respond to optimistic appeals to their emotions, not their intellects. One can propose well-formulated arguments for gay equality until one’s lungs give out, and they will have far less effect than an easily digested bromide spoken with a grin and a wink. I want to persuade folks like **Bodswood** to change their views not through hectoring them or debating them, but by showing that gay people have the same feelings, the same need to love and be loved, as they do. We need to appeal to their empathy and sense of shared humanity to convert them into being pro-gay rights. **Spectrum** ’s anger is not wrong, but it is counter-productive. The goal is the achievement of full citizenship for gay people, and any personal issue that gets in the way of realizing that goal is a luxury that has to be jettisoned. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/36 "2004-06-27T00:48:12Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > These Christian groups do these fucked-up things out of love, as twisted as the love in question is. And gay Christians who are so deluded as to make the choice themselves (no, parents should not be able to make it for their children) ought to have the option, IMHO. > […] > But even if their ideas are bad, and wrong, and make me angry, it doesn’t make it fair for me to assign them motives, or declare them to be evil, or anything else. “It’s done out of love” is a rationalization that people use to justify evil behavior. I have absolutely no sympathy for someone who will not take even a moment to question his own religious beliefs, but still take it upon himself to demand that I question my orientation. I don’t know if I would call it “evil” or “soulless,” but it’s sure as hell not “love” either. Too many people fall back on their religion as a get-out-of-argument-free card. They say that it was the way they were raised, what they were taught to believe, that makes them positive that homosexuality is wrong. Nothing personal, of course. “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” And we’re so ingrained with the idea of freedom of religion that we often let that kind of “argument” slide. But I was raised Christian, I still am Christian, and I’ve been forced several times to re-think my interpretation of my faith and religion. To accomodate evolution, to accomodate other religions, to accomodate atheists and agnostics, to accomodate homosexuality. My religion taught me that only those who accept Christ will go to heaven; does that mean it’s okay if I say that muslims should not be allowed to marry and breed their soulless, doomed babies? No, the idea would get dismissed immediately. There is nothing noble about acting on something, even something as fundamental as your religious beliefs, without giving it thought. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Basically, it seems to me that people aren’t saying, “Well, **spectrum** should be a perfect nice little gay boy, so other people won’t get bad ideas about gays.”. > > They’re saying, “ **spectrum** , the idea is not to start spitting on people, but while you’re fighting them, try to win them over to your side.” > > Convince them that they’re wrong. You can’t do that by screaming at them. And believe, I do understand why you feel the need to. > > Fight back by standing up for your rights-AND by trying to educate others. It’s the only way. Sadly, it’s also not an easy or quick way, but nothing ever is in life. I don’t want to put words in **spectrum** ’s mouth, and I definitely don’t want to treat him like some clinical subject that we can analyze. But based on what he’s said, I get the impression he’s not particularly _interested_ in trying to educate others. He’s hearing bullshit and he’s speaking out against it, and expressing his rage. Leave the “re-education” to other people. I know I wouldn’t want anyone treating me like I’m obligated to be a spokesman for homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/37 "2004-06-27T03:48:02Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > “It’s done out of love” is a rationalization that people use to justify evil behavior. I have absolutely no sympathy for someone who will not take even a moment to question his own religious beliefs I disagree that people don’t do that. Among the very devout Christians I know, their faith involves constant thought, exploration, and questioning. Some people believe what they’re told without thought, but others think hard, and question, and yet they still come to conclusions that I think is wrong. That doesn’t mean they’re not trying. > [@](#): > > Too many people fall back on their religion as a get-out-of-argument-free card. They say that it was the way they were raised, what they were taught to believe, that makes them positive that homosexuality is wrong. Nothing personal, of course. “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” I think “Love the sinner, hate the sin” is a mask for some of the most hateful behavior in the world sometimes. But I once again point out that it’s not always “how I was raised” but “my understanding of the Bible in light of a long period of thought and prayer.” Faith isn’t a simple thing to the truly faithful, from what I’ve seen. > [@](#): > > And we’re so ingrained with the idea of freedom of religion that we often let that kind of “argument” slide. But I was raised Christian, I still am Christian, and I’ve been forced several times to re-think my interpretation of my faith and religion. The fact that their thought hasn’t led to the same conclusion as yours doesn’t mean they haven’t thought. And personally, I really can’t wrap my head around what allows gay people to be Christians, because the Bible seems to be so clear on the idea that being gay is wrong - and of course I’m not talking about the Sodom and Gomorrah bit. > [@](#): > > My religion taught me that only those who accept Christ will go to heaven; does that mean it’s okay if I say that muslims should not be allowed to marry and breed their soulless, doomed babies? No, the idea would get dismissed immediately. I didn’t try to defend arguments against gay marriage, because I don’t see how the determined opposition of a lot of these folks could come from anything but bigotry. Note that I was talking about ‘reparative therapy’ - and **spectrum** ’s statements about it were as hardline and as fire-and-brimstone as anything I’ve ever heard from a Christian fundametalist. > [@](#): > > Leave the “re-education” to other people. I know I wouldn’t want anyone treating me like I’m obligated to be a spokesman for homosexuals. Fair enough. I get damned sick of people bitching about other various gay people “not being a good example for the straight people.” But in the end, I don’t want to be as angry as **spectrum** appears to be, and I think looking at other people’s motives can help you understand them. It doesn’t make them right, and they have no right to impose their religious views on the rest of us - I would never defend that. But it’s worth looking at other folks’ intentions, and trying to see why they do what they do. Sometimes they’re motivated by a misguided sense of love, sometimes they are fearful, and on rare occasions they’re hateful. Don’t chalk everything up to hate; it makes you angry and it makes dialogue impossible. I try hard to find the decency in everyone. Sometimes, I’m not successful. But I try. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/38 "2004-06-27T05:02:45Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > Hmm. > > You know what, as much as I like to pretend I understand, I don’t. Bully for me, of course, not so much for you guys. But you’re right. You’re absolutely right. The more I think about it, the more I question whether I could even be as tactful as **spectrum** has been in this thread. For me, it’s a purely intellectual exercise; occasionally I’ll get angry at a Phelps, an uncouth friend, or my grandfather or something, but even then, it’s like a freelance emotional investment, to be picked up again whenever convenient. Likewise, my appreciation of what gays have invested in this kind of thread was an intellectual appreciation. > > I sort of regret that I even started the thread, to be quite honest. I don’t blame you for what you say. I’ll still flinch a little bit, most likely, but then I’m detached from the situation, and I have the luxury to do so. I’m not remotely a participant in this thread, but I’ve been halfway following, and I wanted to say – since no one else has – this is admirable. A change of heart based on what’s been learned here. Good for you. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/39 "2004-06-27T05:28:13Z")
Well, that’s nice and all, but the freakout on me that got **spectrum** a warning from the mods was in a thread that had nothing to do with reparative therapy or gay marriage. **Spectrum** acts inappropriately at times, and should be called on it when he does. Otherwise, he does his side no help. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280/40 "2004-06-27T05:50:57Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Well, that’s nice and all, but the freakout on me that got **spectrum** a warning from the mods was in a thread that had nothing to do with reparative therapy or gay marriage. > > **Spectrum** acts inappropriately at times, and should be called on it when he does. Otherwise, he does his side no help. Link? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spectrum-i-dont-get-it/252280.md?page=3)