# Speculation: What if the Ark of the Covenant were discovered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790 "2004-08-21T00:11:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/21 "2004-08-21T17:56:07Z")
Aaagh! “help”, “help”, Aaagh! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/22 "2004-08-21T20:58:04Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Well, if it were found in a cave in Michigan, and the evidence was it was there for quite a long time, THAT would raise some interesting questions. 😉 Paging Brigham Young! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/23 "2004-08-21T20:59:11Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > WRS - Velirushalayim irekha barachamim tashuv, vetishkon betokhah kaasher dibarta, uvnei otah baqarov beyameinu binyan olam, vekhissei David avdekha meheirah letokhah takhin. Barukh atah H’, bonei yerushalayim. (Amein.) Retzei H’ elo(q)einu beamekha yisraeil velitfillatam she’ei, vehasheiv et haavoda lidivir beitekha. Ve’ishei yisraeil, utfillatam meheira baahava teqabeil beratzon, ut’hi leratzon tamid avodat yisraeil amekha. Vetechezena eineinu beshuvekha laratzon barachamin. Barukh atah H’, hammachazir shekhinato letziyon. (Amein.) Sez you! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/24 "2004-08-21T21:06:29Z")
Well, unless the dingus can melt NAZIs or shoot laser beams, even if it could be proven genuine, it wouldn’t mean anything. That ancient Hebrews had a revered box into which they put revered stuff doesn’t exactly stir my atheist heart. Heck, I could sort-of buy all the non-miraculous aspects of the Book of Exodus re Moses (or some similar philosopher King) codifying Hebrew belief some 3400 years ago without dwelling on some larger meaning. I’m guessing a lot of people will be a little gladdened that hard evidence exists, but I don’t expect them to change their lives because of it. But as soon as one NAZI melts, all bets are off. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/25 "2004-08-22T00:04:28Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > For that matter, I don’t know how you could ever prove that it was THE ark. Maybe several copies were made. Maybe it was made to the specification of the story in the bible shortly after the original text was written. How could you tell? Thinking about the above, it just doesn’t parse. If the author of the early Jewish writings wrote about a box which included a lot of gold in the construction, would not his contemporaries just scoff at him with “Hey dude, there just ain’t such an object. If there were, wouldn’t some of us have seen it?” rather than construct a box immediately to try and make the story true? After all, the text states that this box was publicly displayed. And back to my original post, I never meant to suggest that if the Ark were found, athiests en masse would start believing in God, and lot of Hindus, Sikhs, whatever would change faiths. They’d just say “Oh, so someone actually found that box mentioned in the early Hebrew scriptures. Interesting. However, since this box exhibits no miraculous properties today, it is just a relic of Jewish folklore.” My point was: “The Ark if found would be considered a sacred object by 3 different faiths, 2 of them quite prominent in the world today. That it currently was in possession by people of one of these faiths could be quite upsetting to some members of the other 2.” The sticky part of the discovery would be how Jews/Christians/Muslims felt about it. Particularly in the sense some of those of the faith that didn’t possess it would find this troubling. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/26 "2004-08-22T00:09:40Z")
If you can endure a slight hijack – do modern Catholics, or any other Christians, still attach a lot of importance to holy relics? You know, saints’ bones, Christ’s foreskin, pieces of the True Cross? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/27 "2004-08-22T00:22:14Z")
> [@Darkhold](#): > > I saw two men get into a fist fight when the Shroud of Turin was carbon dated to the wrong century. (One was of the opinion that Jesus’ soul screwed up the dating when it passed through the cloth the other was of the opinion it was all a Jewish conspiracy to discredit the shroud) > > I’ve seen two churches sever contact with each other (one always rented the other’s halls for their big events and they stopped doing that and started writing hostile letters to the editor in our local paper) when one church said the inscription on some tomb was “Here lies John brother of Jesus” or some such was a fake that Jesus had no brothers of sisters. > > Considering how passionate and hateful I’ve seen people get over very old arguments it disturbs me to the core to wonder how much upset could be caused over unearthing the Ark. Yep. Your example of the guys getting into a fist fight over the Shroud of Turin is an excellent example. There was never any particularly good reason for anyone to think it was real. First, there is no Biblical mention of such a shroud ever existing. If it had been seen at the time, one would expect that it would be notable enough to be worth writing about. Second, the shroud happens to pop up in the Middle Ages, at a time that trafficking in phony relics was well documented. Where is the record of people who had seen something as unusual as this in the many centuries before? And even the Roman Catholic Church never presented it as being 100% absolutely an authentic relic. They just thought of it as an interesting curiousity. People didn’t abandon Roman Catholicism in large numbers when it was proved a fake. Now as for the Ark, both Jews, Christians and Muslims hold as a matter of the faith it did exist. If the Ark were found, and could be proven to be of the correct age for the true Ark, THAT would be a mighty sacred relic. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/28 "2004-08-22T03:49:05Z")
The lovely Northern Gothic Jesus doesn’t help sell its genuineness, either. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/29 "2004-08-22T20:03:52Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > Completely wild speculation: Fundamentalist Christians in the US believed that the Ark was in Iraq, so they conspired to cause the Iraqi invasion. Thus, the search for WMDs and Saddam Hussein was just a cover for the real target; the Ark itself. Naw, it’s the Babylonian Stargate to Nibiru that Bush is trying to access for Skull & Bones to establish contact with our Annunaki overlords! DUH! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/30 "2004-08-22T21:04:35Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > This idea occurred to me when reading the thread about Israel rebuilding the Temple. This is just a thought experiment. Let’s assume that the following happens: > > #1) The Ark of the Covenenant is found. In this hypothetical, wherever and however it is discovered is not particularly politically controversial. IOW, its discovery doesn’t involve something like Israel razing the Dome of the Rock and searching for it. **THAT** could very well result in WWIII, and if it happened none of us might be around to debate it. :eek: I’m thinking here something like its discovery is similar to the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were happened upon by accident by some young Bedouin shepherds in a cave. Or maybe some archaelogists happens to figure out where it is, etc. > > #2) The Ark exhibits no apparent magical or divine properties at this point. From my understanding, based on holy texts which hold that it once did hold a presence of God, that presence may have left it long ago. Thus its lack of such properties wouldn’t necessarily invalidate any religious faith. > > #3) Based on the totality of the evidence, it is quite convincing that the object discovered is indeed the Ark the Jews carried around long ago. This wouldn’t necessarily be hard to do. What the true Ark looked like is fairly well described in the ancient Hebrew texts. By various means, including science, the Ark that was found could be dated to the appropriate time period. And, there just isn’t any good reason to think anyone way back then was making bogus copies of the Ark. Particularly with gold being part of the construction. IOW, it isn’t like the situation where phony pieces of the “true cross Christ was crucified on” were sold to naive suckers by con men. And those pieces of the “true cross Christ was crucified on” amounted to enough wood to have been used in the crucifiction of hundreds of men. 😉 > > When considering this hypothetical, note these points. It could be discovered in a place where Jews rule, Muslims rule, or Christians now rule. It is quite reasonable if the Ark still exists, wherever it is now could be in many possible places. I’m assuming here that the Ark did once actually exist. Ignore for a moment this issue of the alleged contents, or if those contents were something of a divine nature. It seems historically plausible to me that the Jews long ago carried around a box that was generally presumed to contain sacred items. And that long ago they hid it somewhere to avoid desecration. The Ark if found would be considered a sacred object by 3 different faiths, 2 of them quite prominent in the world today. That it currently was in possession by people of one of these faiths could be quite upsetting to some members of the other 2. > > Comments? At least 500 lb. of fragments from the Ark would appear in churches worldwide alongside the 2 tons of fragments and 4025 nails from the True Cross. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/31 "2004-08-22T22:14:41Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > One thing that would happen is that archaeologists would empty their bookshelves into the dumpster, because it’s been pretty well decided for a long time that the Israelites were indigenous to the Isreal area, and a mass exodus from Egypt never occurred. That does not preclude the existence of a sacred object, made by the Levite tribe in their pre-urban phase, winding up in the Temple when the Israelites become a unified kingdom, and then inserted into the national “origin story” about the mass exodus. It does not even prevent the ark, or the tabernacle, or the tablets, from being things that _did_ travel across Sinai: it could be the case that though the bulk of the Israelite volk was autochtonous to the Jordan valley region (or as autochtonous as any ethnicity can be in that location), _some_ group influential in their socioreligious development did embark on a migration from the general direction of Egypt – that was later on magnified and boostered into a Great Exodus when they got around to writing it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/32 "2004-08-23T00:12:05Z")
It Belongs In A Museum!!! ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/33 "2004-08-23T02:53:44Z")
Well, if history is any indication, if it’s placed in a museum with artifacts from idolatrous religions, it’ll cause them to fall down and be dismembered, and the curators will develop hemmorhoids until it’s returned to its rightful place. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/34 "2004-08-23T03:14:52Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Well, if history is any indication, if it’s placed in a museum with artifacts from idolatrous religions, it’ll cause them to fall down and be dismembered, and the curators will develop hemmorhoids until it’s returned to its rightful place. I would think if the Ark were found it would be thought a museum just to house it would justified. It is just where this museum would located that would be politically controversial. How would Israel react if the Ark was found in Jordan, and was that museum was located in Jordan? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/35 "2004-08-23T03:46:30Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > …until it’s returned to its rightful place. BTW, what today would be the rightful place? Assume that I am an archaeologist, and manage to find the Ark. And, that it is my desire to take the Ark to its rightful place. I can’t very well take it to the Temple in Jerusalem and leave it in the Holy of Holies, as the Temple is no longer there. What should I do with the thing? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/36 "2004-08-23T12:57:26Z")
I thought it was not lost- that a church in Ethiopia has it. As I recall, one person in that church is the safekeeper of it and the only person allowed to actually see it. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/37 "2004-08-23T12:57:55Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > There just ain’t as many Nazi’s today as there used to be. 😉 Of course there are. They are just called Islamic Militants now. rwj ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/38 "2004-08-23T14:16:49Z")
rfgdxm: > [@](#): > > BTW, what today would be the rightful place? Assume that I am an archaeologist, and manage to find the Ark. And, that it is my desire to take the Ark to its rightful place. I can’t very well take it to the Temple in Jerusalem and leave it in the Holy of Holies, as the Temple is no longer there. What should I do with the thing? Once again going with Biblical history as a guide, it could be placed on a cart drawn by two oxen and let the oxen free to pull it without human guidance. Otherwise, I suppose that some sort of tent could be set up in Jerusalem as an interim home for it (e.g., the dedicated museum you mentioned - but treated with respect due a sacred object rather than as a historical artifact for every curious person to lay eyes on) until a new Temple can be rebuilt. That’s what King David did. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/39 "2004-08-23T14:46:13Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I thought it was not lost- that a church in Ethiopia has it. As I recall, one person in that church is the safekeeper of it and the only person allowed to actually see it. True. Actually, I believe the safekeeper lives alone and can’t leave the place. He’s a sort of hermit. But since, as you mentionned, nobody is allowed to approach the thing, it’s not like this claim is taken very seriously. There’s probably _something_ in this church, but probably as real as the relics found all over Europe. At least, with the shroud of Turin, people can see it from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790/40 "2004-08-23T14:50:19Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Just out of curiosity: what means, other than science, would be used to date the Ark? I can’t think of any, you see. Art historical analysis of its style, which few would consider ‘science’ but which can, in some cases, be at least as accurate as scientific dating methods. In this particular case, they might be a problem about finding suitable objects for comparison… > [@BobLibDem](#): > > I thought it was not lost- that a church in Ethiopia has it. As I recall, one person in that church is the safekeeper of it and the only person allowed to actually see it. Er, the clergy at Axum may claim that they have it, but the fact that no outsiders are allowed to see it means that all we have is their word for it. That might be enough to convince Graham Hancock; the rest of us would prefer a bit more evidence. And, as [Roderick Grierson and Stuart Munro-Hay](http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0297841432/qid=1093272087/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_10_3/026-4496878-8560411) have argued, what evidence we do have is far from straightforward or unambiguous. It is not even obvious that the clergy at Axum do claim that they have it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speculation-what-if-the-ark-of-the-covenant-were-discovered/260790.md?page=3)