# Speech Pattern **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 24, 2008, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798 "2008-01-24T06:51:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![brownsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@brownsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownsfan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/1 "2008-01-24T06:51:08Z")
My wife and I adopted a biracial male at birth (Caucasian/African-American). He’s now 8. We are both white (I am going to use white/black in the rest of this post, so if you have a problem with this, read no further. He attends a school that is well over 99% white, and has no black teachers. A few nights ago, he said, “Mommy, I know what tonite is. B-A-F night”. He spelled it. It took mom a few seconds to realize he meant bath night. We were in hysterics over this. I’d be hard-pressed to think up anything funnier, but then, I’m easily amused, according to certain idiots. Ok, my question: Is there a reason he says “toofbrush” and the like? Also, what’s up with him always substituting “what” for “that”? As in, The present what my Dad bought me? The lunch what you made for me. I’ve been correcting his grammar since he started speaking, to no avail. Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/2 "2008-01-24T07:16:01Z")
[QUOTE=brownsfan] My wife and I adopted a biracial male at birth (Caucasian/African-American). He’s now 8. We are both white (I am going to use white/black in the rest of this post, so if you have a problem with this, read no further. He attends a school that is well over 99% white, and has no black teachers. A few nights ago, he said, “Mommy, I know what tonite is. B-A-F night”. He spelled it. It took mom a few seconds to realize he meant bath night. We were in hysterics over this. I’d be hard-pressed to think up anything funnier, but then, I’m easily amused, according to certain idiots. Ok, my question: Is there a reason he says “toofbrush” and the like? Also, what’s up with him always substituting “what” for “that”? As in, The present what my Dad bought me? The lunch what you made for me. I’ve been correcting his grammar since he started speaking, to no avail. Any thoughts? [/QUOTE] Sounds like he could benefit from time with a speech therapist. A lot of kids do. I did when I was in elementary school. Is there anything about this _particular_ speech impediment that leads you to infer anything _particular_ about this “biracial male”? If so, would you care to spell it out? ---
**Author:** ![brownsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@brownsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownsfan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/3 "2008-01-24T07:31:23Z")
[QUOTE=Koxinga] Sounds like he could benefit from time with a speech therapist. A lot of kids do. I did when I was in elementary school. Is there anything about this _particular_ speech impediment that leads you to infer anything _particular_ about this “biracial male”? If so, would you care to spell it out? [/QUOTE] I thought I spelled it out. He says “bof”. We say “both”. He says "“what” my dad bought me, we say “that” my dad bought me. I can’t think of a simpler way to explain it. It is what it is. Just trying to fight ignorance, without seeing a need to put things in quotation marks. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/4 "2008-01-24T07:34:26Z")
Presumably, he picked up using “what” in that manner from the speech of his peers (the same way others pick up using “that” in those contexts). There aren’t many other plausible explanations. As for realizing the “th” phoneme with /f/, either that is also just an accent trait he’s picked up from his peers, or perhaps it is some sort of more complicated speech issue where he has difficulty with the more standard sound (it is worth noting that, if this is the case, both his production and perception seem to be affected, as given by the his spelling the word “B-A-F”; he may not hear any significant difference between the relevant classes of sounds). ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/5 "2008-01-24T07:40:43Z")
(What it is most assuredly not is anything to do with his being “biracial”. Accent isn’t racially determined, and certainly not syntax.) ---
**Author:** ![brownsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@brownsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownsfan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/6 "2008-01-24T08:19:23Z")
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable] Presumably, he picked up using “what” in that manner from the speech of his peers (the same way others pick up using “that” in those contexts). There aren’t many other plausible explanations. As for realizing the “th” phoneme with /f/, either that is also just an accent trait he’s picked up from his peers, or perhaps it is some sort of more complicated speech issue where he has difficulty with the more standard sound (it is worth noting that, if this is the case, both his production and perception seem to be affected, as given by the his spelling the word “B-A-F”; he may not hear any significant difference between the relevant classes of sounds). [/QUOTE] Thanks for your answer. His peers are vanilla white, thus my OP. The second part of your answer gives food for thought. I have a lot of experience (I don’t know how to fucking phrase this, so can I be honest, please?) in dealing with the issue of how blacks maybe somehow process language differently than whites. To re-phrase: He never hears his parents, or anyone else, say “what” for “that”. Thanks in advance for responses. ---
**Author:** ![JustThinkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JustThinkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustThinkin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/7 "2008-01-24T13:13:35Z")
Two things. First, the -f- for -th- thing sounds like a simple speech problem. I couldn’t pronounce Rs right until I was about that age. I still sometimes slur when I get really tired. Some phonemes are hard for young mouths to form. Second, if he’s a bright kid, he might have picked up the “what” thing as an affectation. Again, at close to that age I decided to start pronouncing either/neither with a long -I- sound when the typical pronunciation of my area was the long -E-. Mom wasn’t impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/8 "2008-01-24T15:50:51Z")
[QUOTE=brownsfan] To re-phrase: He never hears his parents, or anyone else, say “what” for “that”. [/QUOTE] Once a kid starts going to school, it’s not easy to determine exactly what he or she might be hearing from “anyone else.” There might be just one person whose speech pattern a kid might pick up. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/9 "2008-01-24T17:10:37Z")
I would say at least try a visit to a speech therapist. I had a friend when I was in school who had a tendency toward the ‘f’ for ‘th’ substitution. He was sent to a speech therapist and - lo and behold - it turned out he had a genetic condition where the forward portion of his tongue was attached to the floor of his mouth. He could not raise the tip of his tongue to his teeth or the roof of his mouth to produce the ‘th’ (and other) sounds successfully. So, over time he had adjusted by producing the ‘f’ sound instead. I’m not say “this is your kids issue”, I’m just suggesting a speech therapist might find something helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/10 "2008-01-24T17:11:58Z")
Also, his avoidance of the word ‘that’ may be a coping strategy if he is unable to produce the ‘th’ sound successfully. Something to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mike\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/11 "2008-01-24T18:23:37Z")
These are characteristics of Black English and not necessarily a speech impediment. I think what the OP is asking is why does he have these speech characterisitics in the absense of anyone else who also speaks like that. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black\_English](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_English) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/12 "2008-01-24T18:33:14Z")
[QUOTE=Mike Fun] These are characteristics of Black English and not necessarily a speech impediment. I think what the OP is asking is why does he have these speech characterisitics in the absense of anyone else who also speaks like that. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black\_English](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_English) [/QUOTE] The kid doesn’t speak “Black English” (AAVE), he speaks AE, probably with a regional Ohio dialect. So while you’re correct that for a speaker of Black English (as well as speakers of a particular South Side Chicago dialect of any race), “Baf” is not a speech impediment, for this kid it probably is. I second, third or whatever the evaluation by a speech pathologist. Tongue tying is a very common reason for this sound substitution, and it often goes unnoticed if the kid is good at compensating. And yeah, this has nothing to do with his race. It may have something to do with his _genetics_, if he is tongue tied, but it’s not racial in origin. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speech-pattern/434798/13 "2008-01-24T18:38:04Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] And yeah, this has nothing to do with his race. It may have something to do with his _genetics_, if he is tongue tied, but it’s not racial in origin. [/QUOTE] Hmm. Reminds me of a quote I just read today: > [@Some Book with a Ridiculously Long Name](#): > > A celebrated French civil engineer, M. Polonceau, visited me some years ago, bringing with him a young French gentleman, who spoke English eloquently, and perfectly like an Englishman, though he had been in England only two years, and, as he assured me, knew nothing of the language previously, nor had ever heard it spoken. I asked him whether he could pronounce the English name Thistlethwaite, and he instantly pronounced it most distinctly and perfectly. The next day, when talking of other matters, he said that he had some Irish relations; and it appeared that his grandmother, on the female side, whom he had never seen, was an Irishwoman. Hence arose, I do not at all doubt, his power of so readily pronouncing the word I had prescribed. A French gentleman at Paris boasted to me that he could pronounce correctly any English word. I proposed Thistlethwaite to him, when, instead of trying, he exclaimed, “Ah, barbare!” [Source](http://jennydavidson.blogspot.com/2008/01/shibboleths.html)