# Speeding - deterrence vs revenue **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 19, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118 "2015-02-19T19:28:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/61 "2015-02-23T00:44:54Z")
Smapti, laws exist at the behest of taxpayers. If they’re not accomplishing what they need to, then they have no legitimacy. People existed before laws, and therefore individual freedom trumps the law, assuming there’s no proven benefit. Honestly, I don’t understand how you don’t understand this. You may not be failing the actual Turing test, but this is very unusual for someone not to understand. I really don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/62 "2015-02-23T00:48:06Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Smapti, laws exist at the behest of taxpayers. If they’re not accomplishing what they need to, then they have no legitimacy. Then the people should abolish those laws, not just ignore the ones they don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/63 "2015-02-23T01:21:07Z")
IMHO the first question always that should be asked in such a violation is of the officer themself, would they personally expect a ‘pass’ (typically called a courtesy) if they were pulled over by another officer for the same offense. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/64 "2015-02-23T01:36:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You know what else increases accidents? Hitler? ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/65 "2015-02-23T02:06:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then the people should abolish those laws, not just ignore the ones they don’t like. I don’t find “should” to be all that useful when I’m trying to understand, well, anything. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/66 "2015-02-23T04:24:14Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > IMHO the first question always that should be asked in such a violation is of the officer themself, would they personally expect a ‘pass’ (typically called a courtesy) if they were pulled over by another officer for the same offense. Any officer who would consider giving another a “pass” for a ticketable offense is unworthy of the badge, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/67 "2015-02-23T14:47:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Speeding is goddamn dangerous, and I don’t even care if I’m surrendering to the cave-man impulse to punish – speeders ought to be punished. I’d say reckless driving is _dangerous_. Speeding is usually a factor in that, but not all speeding is inherently reckless. Cops _speed_ all the time (non-emergency, including unmarked cars), the vast majority of highway traffic in my area exceeds the limit, and even the speed cameras allow for a 10 mph buffer _over_ the limit, before they take your photo. That’s telling us that the authority, the comfortable levels of travel (by motorists), and the technical rules, all handle or accept speeds above the posted limit, and for the most part, do so safely. If more states had laws surrounding proper lane discipline, and enforced them, our driving would be much more predictable, and thus, safer. The fact that they primarily attribute danger to speed, is all too convenient, depending on area and circumstance. When states don’t even have consistent safety inspections, in tandem with poor licensing programs (including the lack of retesting), it really calls into question safety concerns. Also, outdated low speed limits are just silly, and [I’m glad my state is slowly recognizing and adjusting them upward](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/maryland-senate-votes-to-increase-maximum-speed-limit-to-70-mph/2015/02/19/8dbdffae-b853-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html)\*\*\*\*\*, to coincide with the times. \*\*\*\*\*[Also, the ICC was bumped up from the ridiculously silly 55 mph limit, as another notable example.](http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/06/icc-speeding-tickets-drop-sharply-since-speed-limit-increase-90707.html) It’s crazy that a modern highway had such a low limit, in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/68 "2015-02-23T15:22:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So what, exactly, are you advocating here? If an officer observes someone going 30 in a 25, should he ignore it because there’s probably something worse going on in Albuquerque? Should he radio the precinct and ask if he’s needed anywhere else before he engages the driver? The original posts were about cops setting speed traps for soccer moms going 4 mph over the limit, with the express purpose of handing out tickets, because their department got part of their funding from ticket revenue. We’re arguing that’s wrong; not because going 4 over is wrong, but because setting speed traps for minor infractions because it’s easy is terrible policing, and does the communities they “serve” a huge disservice, because there are likely much more serious traffic infractions going on somewhere else, not to mention actual violent crimes or the like. Clearly if a cop is out and about, and someone passes them going 4 mph over the speed limit, then they’re justified in pulling them over and ticketing them. What we’re saying is that laying speed traps to catch that sort of traffic violation is shitty, and almost certainly money-driven, not justice driven, or even very relevant to enforcing the law, except in the most nit-picky, pedantic, literalist way. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/69 "2015-02-23T15:29:10Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > How do people know about the “general rule”? Is it written somewhere? It was in our state vehicle code and its in the process of being put back. I believe the new standard as its being written is motorcycles can proceed after the second cycle and not wait until the third. The exception is camera traps - for those you still have to prove yourself “innocent” (document the malfunction of the light and collect testimony). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/70 "2015-02-23T18:24:13Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Clearly if a cop is out and about, and someone passes them going 4 mph over the speed limit, then they’re justified in pulling them over and ticketing them. What we’re saying is that laying speed traps to catch that sort of traffic violation is shitty, and almost certainly money-driven, not justice driven, or even very relevant to enforcing the law, except in the most nit-picky, pedantic, literalist way. And yet, it catches people who are breaking the law. If people weren’t speeding, then setting up a speed trap would be a waste of time and money. ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/71 "2015-02-25T17:16:17Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think you miss the point. Not only are these clowns enforcing traffic laws for the sake of enriching themselves and their department, and not for the purpose of public safety, but they’re likely spending time pulling over soccer-mom piloted minivans going 4mph over the line for those reasons, rather than investigating and deterring actual, real, serious crimes. > > That IS a travesty; maybe in smaller towns there aren’t enough real crimes to go around, so the cops can sit around effectively shaking people down for money, but in most big cities, I’d guarantee that **every minute giving someone a dubious traffic ticket is time not spent investigating or deterring a serious crime, or apprehending a serious criminal**. {Bolding mine} It seems to me that in most larger city police departments, aren’t there usually two divisions, one for Crime and one for Traffic Enforcement? Officers from each side are still required to enforce the laws that are normally handled by the other group, but each group primarily focuses on their own milieu. Or is that just a trope in many crime dramas: “Screw up one more time, and it’s back to Traffic for you!”? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/72 "2015-02-25T17:25:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And yet, it catches people who are breaking the law. If people weren’t speeding, then setting up a speed trap would be a waste of time and money. You break the law every day, as we all do. Perhaps if a police officer followed you all day giving you citations , you’d change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/73 "2015-02-25T17:27:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You break the law every day, as we all do. Maybe _you_ break the law every day. Some of us have more self-control. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/74 "2015-02-25T18:40:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Maybe _you_ break the law every day. Some of us have more self-control. Well, let me give you an example. If your city has a recycling ordinance, that requires you to put recyclables in one bin and trash in the other. _Any_ trash in the recyclables bin … _or_ recyclables in the trash bin- and you have violated the law. No one gets it perfect. Thus everyone violates the law. And it’s not a matter of " self-control":rolleyes:- it’s a matter of inadvertently violating the law. [http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/you-break-the-law-every-day-without-even-knowing-it.html](http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/you-break-the-law-every-day-without-even-knowing-it.html) > **[How You're Breaking the Law Every Day (and What You Can Do About It)](https://lifehacker.com/how-youre-breaking-the-law-every-day-and-what-you-can-5888488)** > > You share music, rip DVDs, make Hitler whine about your first world problems , and much more in the course of your regular online activities—and more > **[The 13 Most Commonly Broken Laws](https://www.businessinsider.com/most-commonly-broken-laws-in-america-2013-10)** > > Even law-abiding citizens break most of these laws every day. And finally- do you really watch your speedometer every second to make sure it doesnt creep under or ver the legal limit? Cause if you do- you have violated the law. If you dont- you have exceeded the speed limit or obstructed traffic. Thus if you drive a car- you violate the law. Period. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/75 "2015-02-25T18:43:23Z")
Are you certain of your speedometer’s accuracy? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/76 "2015-02-25T18:45:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If your city has a recycling ordinance, that requires you to put recyclables in one bin and trash in the other. _Any_ trash in the recyclables bin … _or_ recyclables in the trash bin- and you have violated the law. I sort my trash. > [@](#): > > And finally- do you really watch your speedometer every second to make sure it doesnt creep under or ver the legal limit? Cause if you do- you have violated the law. What law makes it illegal for me to monitor my dashboard instruments? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/77 "2015-02-25T18:46:45Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > Are you certain of your speedometer’s accuracy? There are places in my area where the city has set up radar guns that feed into a light-up panel that shows you your actual speed. So yes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/78 "2015-02-25T18:50:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I sort my trash. > > What law makes it illegal for me to monitor my dashboard instruments? Maybe you do, but you cant do it perfectly. No one can. Not paying proper attention to the road. And I didnt say “monitor” the only way to know you always go exactly the speed limit, not even a MPH over it is to watch the speedometer only & constantly. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/79 "2015-02-25T18:59:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not paying proper attention to the road. And I didnt say “monitor” the only way to know you always go exactly the speed limit, not even a MPH over it is to watch the speedometer only & constantly. Or set the cruise control. Or just keep my attention on the road and the dash panel simultaneously like a competent driver. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118/80 "2015-02-25T19:43:19Z")
I got a ticket for 5mph over the limit once. I was on a highway, pretty much in the middle of a pack of cars cruising along at 65mph in a 60 zone. Didn’t even think anything of the cop I could clearly see up ahead. So I was surprised when he pulled me over until I considered that \*I \*was the guy driving with out of state plates. That’s the kind of thing that burns me up. Driving the speed limit would have actually been more dangerous as I’d have been clogging up the right lane, causing the flow of traffic to have to divert around me. But I got nabbed, no doubt, for being from a different state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/speeding-deterrence-vs-revenue/713118.md?page=5)