# Spelling: American v. British **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889 "2016-06-20T14:22:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/21 "2016-06-21T12:01:57Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > “Doughnut” or “donut”? Round cruller ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/22 "2016-06-21T12:07:17Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Well, no, most of the Commonwealth countries have their own variants of English - sometimes more than one variant. And there are still other variants of English from countries which are not Commonwealth countries. These variants tend mostly to be closer to British English than to American English but they are nevertheless distinct from both. And British English itself has a ton of variants, but this thread is about spelling, not dialects. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/23 "2016-06-21T12:12:57Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And British English itself has a ton of variants, but this thread is about spelling, not dialects. But there’s no “Commonwealth spelling” either. Most Commonwealth countries are more likely to use the same spelling as Britain rather than the US, but this varies. In Australia, for example, “program” is the standard spelling for all senses of that word (as in the US, but not as in the UK). And I’m pretty sure that some US spellings are standard in Canada also. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/24 "2016-06-21T12:14:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s worth noting that the Latin of words like colour didn’t have a U either, so the American spelling is, in fact, closer to the original. That’s not the reason, but let’s not pretend the U-colour is some sort of purer form of the word. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone claim that English has any purity in any of its forms. It’s a mishmash no matter what angle you’re coming from. British English isn’t pure, it just predates American spelling, 'tis all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/25 "2016-06-21T13:23:59Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > British English isn’t pure, it just predates American spelling, 'tis all. For some people, that’s all that matters, it seems. “Purer” is how some people have put it to me, but also “more traditional” and the like. Me, I use the English spellings, but I don’t _fetishize_ them. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/26 "2016-06-21T13:53:23Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone claim that English has any purity in any of its forms. It’s a mishmash no matter what angle you’re coming from. British English isn’t pure, it just predates American spelling, 'tis all. English is a language you don’t so much speak as you chew on it and spit it out. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/27 "2016-06-21T14:14:19Z")
If you want tradition, how about this: the English were attempting [spelling reform](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_reform) long before there was such a thing as America. Since Webster, a number of famous and otherwise influential Americans have proposed simplified spelling. [The Simplified Spelling Board](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Spelling_Board) was: > [@](#): > > announced on March 11, 1906, with Andrew Carnegie funding the organization, to be headquartered in New York City. The New York Times noted that Carnegie was convinced that “English might be made the world language of the future” and an influence leading to universal peace, but that this role was obstructed by its “contradictory and difficult spelling”.[1] Carnegie committed $15,000 (1906 dollars – over $350,000 in 2010 dollars[2]) per year for five years to get the organization off the ground.[3] > > The initial 30 members of the Board consisted of authors, professors and dictionary editors, among them Supreme Court Justice David Josiah Brewer, President Nicholas Murray Butler of Columbia University, Dr. Melvil Dewey (inventor of the Dewey Decimal Classification), Dr. Isaac K. Funk (editor of The Standard Dictionary), former United States Secretary of the Treasury Lyman J. Gage, United States Commissioner of Education William Torrey Harris (and editor-in-chief of the 1909 Webster’s New International Dictionary), publishing magnate Henry Holt, professor Calvin Thomas, and author Mark Twain.[1] Melville Dewey, yes, the Dewey Decimal Dewey, was such a nut on the subject that when he was the librarian of Columbia University he changed the spelling of his name to Melvil Duy. The Board said uh-uh you nut. Dewey left instead of giving in. But he compromised and for the rest of his life he spelled his name Melvil Dewey. You might also notice Mark Twain’s name on the list. He has a famous little piece on the subject. > [@](#): > > For example, in Year 1 that useless letter “c” would be dropped to be replased either by “k” or “s”, and likewise “x” would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which “c” would be retained would be the “ch” formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform “w” spelling, so that “which” and “one” would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish “y” replasing it with “i” and iear 4 might fiks the “g/j” anomali wonse and for all. > > Generally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeiniing voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez “c”, “y” and “x”— bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez —tu riplais “ch”, “sh”, and “th” rispektivili. > > Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/28 "2016-06-21T16:19:08Z")
That doesn’t read like Twain’s writing, which in turn makes me suspicious about the Carnegie and Dewey stories. I can think of other reasons why Dewey’s name was spelled inconsistently, such as the fact that variant name spellings were ridiculously common before the increasing literacy and record-sharing enforced standardization. Can you provide a cite that it isn’t a modern piece attributed to Twain? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/29 "2016-06-21T16:26:30Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Can you provide a cite that it isn’t a modern piece attributed to Twain? I found [this](http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/twain.htm): > [@](#): > > Although many people have attributed the “Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling” to Mark Twain, most Twain scholars doubt that this attribution is accurate. It has also (and probably more accurately) been attributed to one M.J. Yilz, in a letter he wrote to the journal _The Economist_. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/30 "2016-06-21T16:51:12Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > That doesn’t read like Twain’s writing, which in turn makes me suspicious about the Carnegie and Dewey stories. I can think of other reasons why Dewey’s name was spelled inconsistently, such as the fact that variant name spellings were ridiculously common before the increasing literacy and record-sharing enforced standardization. > > Can you provide a cite that it isn’t a modern piece attributed to Twain? Not often I get fooled, but I guess I did. Sorry about that. That Twain advocated spelling reform is beyond doubt. [A Simplified Alphabet](https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/t/twain/mark/what_is_man/chapter11.html) is a real piece from 1899, found in any number of Twain collections. Variant spellings of names were common in Shakespeare’s time, but not the late 19th century. That Dewey shortened his name is well know. Here’s a mention in print from [America’s College Fraternities](https://books.google.com/books?id=zhkrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=%22melvil+duy%22&source=bl&ots=N-21ruolbm&sig=NF81gVF3vK9T3OsflmYm-LtiSAo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjitqnyx7nNAhVFHR4KHTiqAEoQ6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=%22melvil%20duy%22&f=false). However, most references cite his spelling as [Dui](http://www.massmoments.org/moment.cfm?mid=137)instead of Duy. I’ve done a lot of research on him: he had fingers in an amazing number of pots. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/31 "2016-06-21T17:01:47Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Not often I get fooled, but I guess I did. Sorry about that. > > That Twain advocated spelling reform is beyond doubt. [A Simplified Alphabet](https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/t/twain/mark/what_is_man/chapter11.html) is a real piece from 1899, found in any number of Twain collections. No worries—happens to everyone. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Variant spellings of names were common in Shakespeare’s time, but not the late 19th century. That Dewey shortened his name is well know. Here’s a mention in print from [America’s College Fraternities](https://books.google.com/books?id=zhkrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=%22melvil+duy%22&source=bl&ots=N-21ruolbm&sig=NF81gVF3vK9T3OsflmYm-LtiSAo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjitqnyx7nNAhVFHR4KHTiqAEoQ6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=%22melvil%20duy%22&f=false). However, most references cite his spelling as [Dui](http://www.massmoments.org/moment.cfm?mid=137)instead of Duy. I’ve done a lot of research on him: he had fingers in an amazing number of pots. In genealogy research, I find tons of name variation in the 19th century. These are poorly educated people having their names written down by officials who didn’t know them personally, though; nothing comparable to Dewey’s situation. Here I’ll defer to your expertise. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/32 "2016-06-21T17:03:12Z")
And while I’m posting in the thread, does anyone know why some of Webster’s reforms were picked up and made standard American spelling, while others were dropped like hot potatoes, like “iland”? ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/33 "2016-06-21T17:08:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And British English itself has a ton of variants, but this thread is about spelling, not dialects. My point being that English is the language of England, hence the name. There’s English and there’s American English, which is a dialect. Now, there are many dialects of English, but the authoritative way to spell English is the English way. That’s why English is called English. I mean, you can claim that the French dialect of Senegal is somehow more important than French French, if you like, but outside of Senegal you’re going to look pretty silly. Well, to me, that’s not much different from Americans calling English “British English”. No, it’s _English_. What Americans speak is a dialect thereof. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/34 "2016-06-21T17:13:14Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > No, it’s _English_. What Americans speak is a dialect thereof. I have often asserted on the Straight Dope that the English invented a language they cannot speak. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/35 "2016-06-21T17:28:30Z")
It seems that Mark train didn’t actually write this - It seems that the “original” was actually written in the 1940s. The writer was W.K. Lessing, who wrote the piece under the pseudonym of Dolton Edwards, although this is disputed - maybe someone on TSD can find the answer? This, however is much more recent, although the author is also unknown: \*The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as “Euro-English.” In the first year, “s” will replace the soft “c.” Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard “c” will be dropped in favour of “k.” This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome “ph” will be replaced with “f.” This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter. In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent “e” in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away. By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing “th” with “z” and “w” with “v.” During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary “o” kan be dropd from vords kontaining “ou” and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis & evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru. Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.\* ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/36 "2016-06-21T17:29:00Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > My point being that English is the language of England, hence the name. There’s English and there’s American English, which is a dialect. Now, there are many dialects of English, but the authoritative way to spell English is the English way. That’s why English is called English. > > I mean, you can claim that the French dialect of Senegal is somehow more important than French French, if you like, but outside of Senegal you’re going to look pretty silly. Well, to me, that’s not much different from Americans calling English “British English”. No, it’s _English_. What Americans speak is a dialect thereof. You are making an argument based on geographical priority (the people in England speak the main dialect). You could equally make an argument based on historical priority (the first people to codify the spelling win—England again) but you could also make an argument on numerical priority (the largest country wins), in which case US spelling makes the most sense. Or you could try to make an argument based on consistency of internal logic, in which case they all lose. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/37 "2016-06-21T17:44:43Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > My point being that English is the language of England, hence the name. There’s English and there’s American English, which is a dialect. Now, there are many dialects of English, but the authoritative way to spell English is the English way. That’s why English is called English. > > I mean, you can claim that the French dialect of Senegal is somehow more important than French French, if you like, but outside of Senegal you’re going to look pretty silly. Well, to me, that’s not much different from Americans calling English “British English”. No, it’s _English_. What Americans speak is a dialect thereof. You’re acting as if there was one English dialect in England. In fact there are 63,042. One for each village, and a half-dozen for each city. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/38 "2016-06-21T19:52:44Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > … you could also make an argument on numerical priority (the largest country wins), in which case US spelling makes the most sense. Surely India has more English speakers than the US? Or am I wrong about that? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/39 "2016-06-21T19:56:32Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Surely India has more English speakers than the US? Or am I wrong about that? Not more L1 speakers. I don’t know about L2 speakers, or L1 + L2. But sure, through Indian spelling into the mix. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889/40 "2016-06-22T13:01:55Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Not more L1 speakers. I don’t know about L2 speakers, or L1 + L2. But sure, through Indian spelling into the mix. It depends on whether you include only those who are fluent (English speakers) or just being able to get by in a basic conversation (English users). The former, you get somewhere around 125 million, or less than half as many as the U.S. With the latter, you get 350 million, or about 50 million more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-american-v-british/757889.md?page=3)