# Spelling Bee Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 1, 2007, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430 "2007-06-01T23:43:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/21 "2007-06-05T15:46:44Z")
[QUOTE=amber03] Maltese boat 1 and maltese boat 2? A foreign word “pressed into service” doesn’t make it an English word, IMO. [/QUOTE] “Foreign” is a foreign word, pressed into service in the Middle Ages. So is “service”. As is “opinion”. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/22 "2007-06-05T17:23:07Z")
In my opinion, a previously foreign word becomes English when it appears in an English sentence in an English book, story, or article without always needing an explanation for the reader. Note that this doesn’t mean the word has to be common. There are many obscure words that most people need to refer to a dictionary to find their definitions for that are nevertheless English. So such words as “pizza”, “seder”, and “sushi” are definitely English. “Dghaisa” would be English if someone used the word in a serious English work and expected the reader to know what it meant, or to look up the word if the reader didn’t. Ed ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/23 "2007-06-05T18:41:53Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] The finals of the National Spelling Bee have gotten ridiculously difficult. When it began, the words that decided the championship were actually words that you could expect to read at some point in your life. Now the winning words are ones that the vast majority of people will _never_ read in their life (except in news stories about the National Spelling Bee). The contestants are now so well trained that any word that there’s a reasonable chance that you’ll see sometime in your life is too easy to distinguish the top contestants. Now they have to use absurdly arcane words for the finals, and this frequently means words borrowed from other languages and used so seldom in English that it’s questionable whether it’s really an English word. [/QUOTE] I’ve reluctantly come to the same conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/24 "2007-06-05T19:31:05Z")
[QUOTE=dennis gallagher] I couldn’t agree more that there is no way that it (dghaisa) is an English word and now it will soon (I am sure) become an acceptable Scrabble word - just like “za” which as we all know is a common usage of those without the strength to actually sound out “pizza.” Just another way really to keep the word game mavens on their toes (and to get a 2-letter word with the letter “z” which previously did not exist.) I think the “SH” Spelling Bee and Scrabble would both be a lot more interesting if the word speller had also to provide a reasonable definition instead of asking for one as in the bee or saying “who cares” as in most serious Scrabble games. [/QUOTE] Since it is already in the _Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged_ (we know this by virtue of the use of it in the Bee), this is not some case of an appearance in the Bee having some impact on use in Scrabble; it would already be available for use in Scrabble by virtue of its presence in that Dictionary. And just an aside: it is absolutely absurd to suggest that rendevous is not an English word, let alone pizza or via. If it isn’t italicized when used, it’s not foreign any more, whatever its origins. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/25 "2007-06-05T20:35:26Z")
[QUOTE=amber03] Except for “pizza”, I don’t even use those words. IMO (again), I don’t consider “pizza” to be an English word. But I really don’t want to argue the point. [/QUOTE] Well, your opinion doesn’t reflect the linguistic reality of the English language. Here’s a simple question for you: How many of the words in the following sentence did not come into English via English’s proto-language? ```auto I'm perfectly content to eat my pizza during dinner in the boondocks. ``` If you’re a native speaker of English, no doubt you understand that sentence with zero trouble. Another query for you: What percentage of the words in your posts so far (in this thread; let’s make it easy on you) originated as loan words? ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/26 "2007-06-05T21:19:18Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Nah we don’t borrow them, we just take 'em. [/QUOTE] “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.” – [James D. Nicoll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_D._Nicoll) ---
**Author:** ![qubed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f07891/32.png) [@qubed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qubed)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/27 "2007-06-05T21:41:42Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] The finals of the National Spelling Bee have gotten ridiculously difficult. When it began, the words that decided the championship were actually words that you could expect to read at some point in your life. Now the winning words are ones that the vast majority of people will _never_ read in their life (except in news stories about the National Spelling Bee). The contestants are now so well trained that any word that there’s a reasonable chance that you’ll see sometime in your life is too easy to distinguish the top contestants. Now they have to use absurdly arcane words for the finals, and this frequently means words borrowed from other languages and used so seldom in English that it’s questionable whether it’s really an English word. [/QUOTE] [List of the winning words since 1925](http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0862710.html) So, the last word I’ve heard of is from 1994 (_antedeluvian_ is, by the way, one of my favorite words). Has the Spelling Bee become drastically more difficult in just the last 10-15 years? Any ideas what’s prompted this? ---
**Author:** ![Jelymag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jelymag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jelymag)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/28 "2007-06-05T22:10:52Z")
I agree it is frustrating that foreign words randomly become “English.” But I don’t see much of an alternative. Can I arbitrarily decide that the English translation for _dghaisa_ is, I don’t know, snoodhopple? How would I let people know? Do I need some kind of legal authority to declare it? What else can we do? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/29 "2007-06-05T22:21:21Z")
> [@alanak](#): > > So, the last word I’ve heard of is from 1994 ([antediluvian] is, by the way, one of my favorite words). Has the Spelling Bee become drastically more difficult in just the last 10-15 years? Any ideas what’s prompted this? Out of the most recent eight examples, I recognized “ursprache”, “appoggiatura”, “autochthonous”, “demarche”, and “logorrhea” right off the bat. And I’m not a spelling bee champion (once made it to seventh place in the regionals in eighth grade, but that’s the limit of my achievement). Several of those, in fact, have appeared in Dope threads that have nothing to do with spelling contests. **Johanna** likes “autochthonous” and has used it in more than one thread, as [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6127136&postcount=5): > [@Johanna on 05-05-2005](#): > > How the retroflex consonants got into Indo-Aryan (and its [neighbor] Pashto as well) is a curious topic. It seems that Dravidian did not originate them; they were picked up from the indigenous Munda languages, which are the real autochthonous languages of India. [“Appoggiatura”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5054339&postcount=4): > [@Caught@Work on 07-10-2004](#): > > An accented appoggiatura is a grace note which takes the accent and part of the time-value of the following principal note. The appoggiatura slides down to the principal note. [“Logorrhea”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8299244&postcount=7) (a natural Doper word): > [@EddyTeddyFreddy on 02-26-2007](#): > > As I understand it, attention-seeking trolls like that not only are banned but, as far as possible without undoing the continuity of the space-time continuum, their, er, contributions to the board are removed as well as their posting presence, and TPTB request no further attention be paid to them since that is, in fact, what enticed them to crawl out from under their rock in the first place. > > Rephrased to reduce the logorrhea: DNFTT, even when they’re gone. [Demarche](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8268979&postcount=5): > [@Declan on 02-17-2007](#): > > Who made it really wouldnt matter except for some forensic types, there is more than enough countrys out there that would be convienient to drop the demarche on. So I think one can make a pretty good case that at least many of the recent championship words have been reasonably well attested in the usage of educated people, rather than just being totally obscure “stumpers”. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/30 "2007-06-05T22:35:40Z")
[QUOTE=Jelymag] I agree it is frustrating that foreign words randomly become “English.” But I don’t see much of an alternative. Can I arbitrarily decide that the English translation for _dghaisa_ is, I don’t know, snoodhopple? How would I let people know? Do I need some kind of legal authority to declare it? What else can we do? [/QUOTE] The other end of the stick, of course, is that absolutely any combination of letters at all can be declared an English word. If dghaisa becomes so common that a translation is needed, then OK, give it a definition and stick it in the dictionary. Is _absolutely every single_ French word an English one? German? Mandarin? Farsi? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/31 "2007-06-05T23:10:06Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > If dghaisa becomes so common that a translation is needed, then OK, give it a definition and stick it in the dictionary. Well, presumably that’s exactly the way that “dghaisa” got into the dictionary. Why not just continue to leave it up to the dictionary compilers to decide which foreign loan words have achieved “English word” status and which haven’t? Do we laypeople need to figure out an additional set of criteria for choosing which words count as part of “official English vocabulary”? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/32 "2007-06-05T23:36:24Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Well, presumably that’s exactly the way that “dghaisa” got into the dictionary. Why not just continue to leave it up to the dictionary compilers to decide which foreign loan words have achieved “English word” status and which haven’t? Do we laypeople need to figure out an additional set of criteria for choosing which words count as part of “official English vocabulary”? [/QUOTE] Well, I suppose my beef is with Random House, and not Scrips. I assume your presumption is reasonable, but I’m not convinced it necessarily is. Perhaps I’ll try to figure out how they make their decisions. Any suggestions on where to start? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/33 "2007-06-06T00:03:01Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Perhaps I’ll try to figure out how they make their decisions. Any suggestions on where to start? Might try [this article](http://kdictionaries.com/newsletter/kdn11-02.html) by Wendalyn Nichols, former editorial director of Random House Dictionaries. > [@W. Nichols](#): > > What it will take to be a lexicographer in the future > > The quality of a lexicographer will still depend heavily on all the traditional skills, as well as talent. I’ve trained plenty of people who learned the basic concepts but never became truly good, instinctual lexicographers – and unfortunately there are too many people out there who’ve had lexicographic training whose work is really quite patchy. Anybody can be taught the basic principles in a university course or an in-house training program on lexicography, but it takes someone with an instinct, an ear for the language—a poet, I would argue—to find just the right genus and differentiae and commit those to paper (or electronic database!) within the restrictions of a particular style guide. > > A lexicographer will still need to have something of the teacher in him or her: an ability to convey complexity in a clear, simple, consistent form. A lexicographer will still need an unerring knowledge of grammar and a curiosity about usage and new words that keeps him or her alert to changes in the language – new words, new uses, shifts in sociolinguistic register. He or she will still need to be able to interpret citations, which have their own role to play in an active reading and marking program alongside corpus data. He or she will still need a keen attention to detail. > > The skills required of a lexicographer going forward are also going to include an ability to analyze corpus data quickly and judiciously, identifying and differentiating significant patterns from “rogue” uses of language, and making allowances for any bias the corpus may have. The lexicographer will have to understand data tagging and be able to work in an electronic medium, manipulating entries across databases. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/34 "2007-06-06T00:05:23Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Might try [this article](http://kdictionaries.com/newsletter/kdn11-02.html) by Wendalyn Nichols, former editorial director of Random House Dictionaries. [/QUOTE] Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/35 "2007-06-06T00:38:19Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] My question is, why is this an English word? [/QUOTE] Why not? It’s perfectly cromulent. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/36 "2007-06-06T00:41:40Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Why not? It’s perfectly cromulent. [/QUOTE] Yeah yeah, I get it. Let me ask you this. Is there any word in any language in the world, or for that matter, any random combination of letters that, once expressed, either orally or written, in an English sentence or phrase, is not an English word? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/37 "2007-06-06T01:01:11Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Is there any word in any language in the world, or for that matter, any random combination of letters that, once expressed, either orally or written, in an English sentence or phrase, is not an English word? Of course, of course. There are gazillions of words, whether foreign or just made up, which are not English words. The thing is, though, that there is no word in any language or any arbitrary combination of letters which is guaranteed never to become an English word. If it somehow makes its way into the usage of English speakers, and if the lexicographers eventually agree to include it in the canons of English vocabulary, then it’s in, baby. Why should we get our nether garments topologically deformed over this? Why should we apply any criteria other than usage and recognition to determine which words count as part of our language? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/38 "2007-06-06T02:34:19Z")
alanak writes: \> Has the Spelling Bee become drastically more difficult in just the last 10-15 \> years? Any ideas what’s prompted this? Yes, it has been slowly getting more difficult over its entire history. The reason is, as I stated earlier, that contestants are putting much more effort into training for it than they used to do. Have you seen the movie _Spellbound_, which is a documentary about contestants in the National Spelling Bee? Many of them have coaches who train them in recognizing obscure words and in rules about spelling words in foreign languages. When the level of preparation increases, the judges have no choice but to use more difficult words. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/39 "2007-06-06T09:48:27Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] The thing is, though, that there is no word in any language or any arbitrary combination of letters which is guaranteed never to become an English word. If it somehow makes its way into the usage of English speakers, and if the lexicographers eventually agree to include it in the canons of English vocabulary, then it’s in, baby. [/QUOTE] So, if it is not in the dictionary, it is not an English word, right? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430/40 "2007-06-06T10:54:10Z")
The issue of whether something is an English word is not a yes-or-no question. There’s a spectrum between being definitely an English word and definitely not one. There are words in other languages that have never been used in an English sentence by an English speaker. These are the only ones that can be said to definitely not be English words. Each time a foreign word is used in an English sentence it comes closer to being an English word. Before such a word is given an entry in an English dictionary, it must be used in speaking or writing by English speakers many times. Being in a dictionary is an official recognition of the fact that the word has now entered English, but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t an English word before the dictionary was published. There’s simply no simple dividing line between words that are now English words and those that are slowly becoming English words. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spelling-bee-question/406430.md?page=3)