# Spike Lee says Italians aren't facing up to their real WWII history? Is he correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961 "2008-10-01T03:22:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/21 "2008-10-01T18:42:52Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > And how do I know Lee didn’t spend enough time studying it? His dumb statements on the subject gave me my first big clue. The rest was just inspired guesswork. Care to catalogue exactly what statements he has made that are demonstrably dumb? ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/22 "2008-10-01T18:50:38Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > When I wrote the ‘I don’t want to judge’ part that you quoted, I meant just that :rolleyes:. You said it, but then you **did** pass judgment immediately after, more or less, with the comment about Germans vs Italians when it comes to voting for ancestors of dictators. Oh, the Germans wouldn’t, but the Italians would. You’re implying something there. Okay, please get Spike Lee on the case so all Italians can be set straight and act like the Germans. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/23 "2008-10-01T19:03:35Z")
This is Spike Lee we’re talking about. Do you have room for the encyclopedic collection bound in harback, or will you wait for the 100-disc CD-rom version? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/24 "2008-10-01T19:10:10Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > This is Spike Lee we’re talking about. Do you have room for the encyclopedic collection bound in harback, or will you wait for the 100-disc CD-rom version? 😃 Funny, I don’t see any actual examples here. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/25 "2008-10-01T20:09:58Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > But I am pretty sure that we wouldn’t see the granddaughter of Adolf Hitler joining a far-right party in Germany and getting elected. Well, sure. Hitler didn’t have any kids. But seriously, that’s what partisans do. It’s what the Italian partisans did, it’s what the Viet Cong did, it’s what the Iraqi rebels do. When large forces of the regular army come, they hustle out of there and leave the civilians to their own devices. Guerilla warfare isn’t generally very nice that way. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/26 "2008-10-01T22:35:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Spike Lee says Italians aren’t facing up to their real WWII history? Would it be alright if Italians made a movie showing American blacks are not facing up to their responsibilities either? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/27 "2008-10-02T01:01:12Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Would it be alright if Italians made a movie showing American blacks are not facing up to their responsibilities either? Why wouldn’t it? You think they should have to apply for a license? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/28 "2008-10-02T01:25:59Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Why wouldn’t it? You think they should have to apply for a license? Do you really think it would go over well in America? Or even in Italy? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/29 "2008-10-02T02:17:40Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Do you really think it would go over well in America? Or even in Italy? You asked me if it was “all right.” I didn’t know that clairvoyance was demanded. In either case, the only criticism that would matter to me would be actual errors in depiction or outright falsehood. I’m still waiting for a sample of those volumes and volumes of “dumb” things that Spike Lee has said about Italy and the Second World War. The non-Spike-Lee cohorts American and British movie industries, just to name two, have courageously taken on the task of depicting just about any goddamn time or place or society they wanted to. Why shouldn’t Spike Lee do it? And why shouldn’t the Italians? Spike Lee is a perfect example. He was annoyed by the neglect of black soldiers by Hollywood directors like Eastwood, so he went and made his own movie about black soldiers in World War II. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/30 "2008-10-02T02:50:34Z")
I’m not seeing a lot of GQ-type answers here so far. I think this is probably better suited for GD. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/31 "2008-10-02T03:46:53Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > You said it, but then you **did** pass judgment immediately after, more or less, with the comment about Germans vs Italians when it comes to voting for ancestors of dictators. Oh, the Germans wouldn’t, but the Italians would. You’re implying something there. Considering that the Italian people are still electing fascists in the 21st century, I don’t really have an issue with this. [QUOTE=Amnesty International] Since 2007, Romani communities and settlements in Italy have been subjected to ongoing discrimination. The Italian authorities have taken several disproportionate and discriminatory “security” measures singling out de facto the Roma minority and have embarked on a recent initiative to collect fingerprints from all residents, both adults and children, of Romani settlements in the country. These measures are often accompanied by strong anti-Roma rhetoric from local and national politicians and the vilification of Romani people in the local and national media. The ongoing fear-mongering and stigmatization have created a climate in which attacks on individuals are becoming increasingly acceptable. Romani people have been victims of several mob attacks by members of the public, in which individuals were physically and verbally attacked and settlements were set on fire. [/quote] [link.](http://www.amnesty.org/en/appeals-for-action/italy-must-stop-the-discrimination-against-roma) [QUOTE=The Guardian, from May 17, 2008] Sixty-eight per cent of Italians, fuelled by often inflammatory attacks by the new rightwing government, want to see all of the country’s 150,000 Gypsies, many of them Italian citizens, expelled, according to an opinion poll. [/quote] [link.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/17/italy) Maybe I’m wrong, and if I am, I’ll accept it, but I do feel like Germans wouldn’t pull this shit. I’ve had conversations with Germans regarding their country’s WWII past, and there is definitely a sense of horror and shame and a strong owning up to their ancestors’ sins - maybe too strong, even. I find it mildly disturbing to hear people speak with such shame about events that occurred long before their birth. I don’t think they would [sunbathe and play frisbee on a beach while dead children of an ethnic minority lay on the sand just a few feet away](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-picture-that-shames-italy-873743.html). But in Italy, it’s okay, they’re only gypsies. I traveled to Italy a number of years ago and just loved it. Had a great time. But I will not be returning any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/32 "2008-10-02T04:03:26Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Notably, this is exactly what Spike Lee is doing. He complained about Hollywood’s neglect of the role of black soldiers in World War II and then made this movie. He complained that Eastwood didn’t insert black people in a plot that didn’t have any and then created a negro-centric war movie of his own. I’m guessing the Italians know their history better than somebody who made a racial grudge movie to prove a point. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/33 "2008-10-02T04:05:47Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Would it be alright if Italians made a movie showing American blacks are not facing up to their responsibilities either? Why wouldn’t it? I really don’t get it. People make movies about foreign countries all the time. Should we have not made “Memoirs of a Geisha” or “The Last King of Scotland”? If this was anyone but Spike Lee, this wouldn’t even be in the news. I mean, a minor special interest group complains their group isn’t portrayed as saints. Who really cares? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/34 "2008-10-02T04:18:02Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > Right…we should hold grandchildren accountable for the actions of their grandparents? :dubious: Perhap’s, if she’s trading on her grandfather’s name the way Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte traded on his uncle’s. And since she’s part of Berlusconi’s party, it wouldn’t surprise me. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/35 "2008-10-02T05:09:01Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > Well, I don’t want to judge the way Italians deal with their terrible and embarrassing past. But I am pretty sure that we wouldn’t see the granddaughter of Adolf Hitler joining a far-right party in Germany and getting elected. Things are different in [Italy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandra_Mussolini). I’ll accept that some Italians might look pretty right wing to you. But when American public opinion starts complaining that Western Europeans aren’t liberal enough then I’m struggling to take the point seriously. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/36 "2008-10-02T05:19:36Z")
Oh, Spike… You complain that black Americans have been given a bad shake because Eastwood’s movie contorted reality and didn’t give black WWII soldiers the credit they are due. Ignoring the fact that your assessment is incorrect, you then seek to remedy the situation by doing to the Italians what you complain about yourself. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/37 "2008-10-02T08:43:20Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > I’ll accept that some Italians might look pretty right wing to you. But when American public opinion starts complaining that Western Europeans aren’t liberal enough then I’m struggling to take the point seriously. **Sandwich** , I’m not complaining about anything and I’m not American. What the hell are you talking about? [QUOTE=Philster] You said it, but then you did pass judgment immediately after, more or less, with the comment about Germans vs Italians when it comes to voting for ancestors of dictators. Oh, the Germans wouldn’t, but the Italians would. You’re implying something there. [/QUOTE] Sorry, **Philster** , but I never meant to imply the things that you seem to be reading in my post. Read it again, it’s just not there. Also: read up on this lady. This is someone who’s using her family name and history as political capital, someone who has publically embraced her grampa’s past and his political beliefs rather than renounce them. The fact that this lady has actually managed to start a successful political carreer to me suggests that at least in some pockets of Italian society, the approach to Italy’s fascist history is not one of remorse and regret. In this respect, Italy is not unique but it does differ sharply from some other European countries with a similar background. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/38 "2008-10-02T09:49:35Z")
Just wanted to add that, according to [Time](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1846062,00.html) magazine: > [@](#): > > …in a 2005 ruling, an Italian military tribunal determined that the massacre was a premeditated plan by the Germans and was in no way provoked by the partisans. I like Spike Lee’s films. I like the fact that he’s putting out a work that highlights the contributions Blacks made on the front lines during WWII. But defending a deliberate distortion of history in that same film? Bad call. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/39 "2008-10-02T10:40:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Is he correct in that the Italians tend to gloss over things much more than the Germans do? Yes. > > Is the film historically accurate? Probably not. > > Does it provide a fair and balanced analysis of the massacre? _Of course not_. It’s not a documentary, it’s historical fiction. > > Anyway, to the Italians who are pissy about this, I say the same thing I said to the British servicemen who were pissed about U-571, or the Catholics who were pissed about _The Da Vinci Code_ - make your own movie. Interesting idea. (I know nothing whatsoever about this movie so my comments are neutral in so far as it is specifically concerned) So if Hollywood makes a multi million dollar movie that portrays all homeless people as child abusers and animal torturers showing it worldwide, then its up to the homeless people themselves to put the record straight by making their own multi million dollar movie and showing it internationally. (Always supposing of course that they can get around U.S. protectionism in the industry to ensure general distribution in America). I think that I can see one or two flaws in your in your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961/40 "2008-10-02T12:17:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He complained that Eastwood didn’t insert black people in a plot that didn’t have any This is the highest bullshit. He never asked for a false portrayal of blacks. He never said that real people who were not black should have been depicted as being black. His complaint was that blacks were inappropriately unseen _generally_. > [@](#): > > and then created a negro-centric war movie of his own. Wow, your phrasing is revealing. > [@](#): > > I’m guessing the Italians know their history better than somebody who made a racial grudge movie to prove a point. A “racial grudge movie”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lee-says-italians-arent-facing-up-to-their-real-wwii-history-is-he-correct/465961.md?page=3)