# Spike Lee's Criticism of Eastwood: Black Soldiers in WWII **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 21, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159 "2008-05-21T21:45:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/1 "2008-05-21T21:45:46Z")
Spike Lee has reportedly leveled a criticism at Clint Eastwood’s casting in “Flags of Our Fathers” and “Letters From Iwo Jima.” He says that both films were whites-only affairs, and that Eastwood ignored the role of black soldiers. " “Many veterans, African-Americans, who survived that war are upset at Clint Eastwood. In his vision of Iwo Jima, Negro soldiers did not exist. Simple as that. I have a different version,” Lee said. I haven’t seen either film, nor am I any kind of an expert on Word War II or the racial integration of the U.S. military. My amateur understanding is that during World War II, there were black combat troops, but they were not integrated with white units; racial integration of the military, I always thought, was a Harry Truman milestone. So my factual, GQ question is: was Eastwood’s casting in those movies an accurate reflection of what a camera would have seen in 1944/45? In other words, does Spike Lee’s criticism hold water from a purely historical accuracy perspective? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/2 "2008-05-21T22:04:36Z")
[Negro Marines on the beach at Iwo Jima.](http://www.archives.gov/research/african-americans/ww2-pictures/images/african-americans-wwii-102.jpg) [Black Marines at Peleliu.](http://www.archives.gov/research/african-americans/ww2-pictures/images/african-americans-wwii-101.jpg) There were certainly black Marines in the thick of the fighting in the Pacific. The units were segregated, but they were all Marines. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/3 "2008-05-21T23:19:14Z")
Ultimately, though, _Flags of Our Fathers_ was the story of a very specific group of people at Iwo Jima – those that raised the flag. They were not Black (Ira Hayes was American Indiant). And while there were Black units on the island, those that raised the flag probably had no contact with them. Adding Blacks to the story made as much sense as adding Martians – they were there, but not part of what was portrayed. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/4 "2008-05-21T23:34:56Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] Ultimately, though, _Flags of Our Fathers_ was the story of a very specific group of people at Iwo Jima – those that raised the flag. They were not Black (Ira Hayes was American Indiant). And while there were Black units on the island, those that raised the flag probably had no contact with them. Adding Blacks to the story made as much sense as adding Martians – they were there, but not part of what was portrayed. [/QUOTE] Martians were where now? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/5 "2008-05-22T00:00:15Z")
Oh how I hate this kind of “litmus test” criticism; just because minority X isn’t on the cast listing doesn’t necessarily mean that anybody associated with the movie is a racist. I wonder if Spike Lee is perfectly happy with the Token character on South Park. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/6 "2008-05-22T00:14:20Z")
I didn’t see _Flags_, but I saw _Letters_, and that was almost entirely about the Japanese side of the event. From what I remember, there were only one or two American soldiers portrayed in the whole movie. It was a Japanese story, not an American one. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/7 "2008-05-22T00:32:23Z")
I was under the impression that before Vietnam, blacks weren’t _usually_ in combat units. They were cooks, laborers, supply, etc. Like Port Chicago and Dorie Miller at Pearl Harbor. While I know of the Tuskegee Airmen and others, I’d still imagine the percentage of black combat troops vs whites would be very low. ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/898d66/32.png) [@Mycroft\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_H)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/8 "2008-05-22T04:00:18Z")
[QUOTE=HubZilla] I was under the impression that before Vietnam, blacks weren’t _usually_ in combat units. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure about World War II but there were definitely a number of black combat troops in Korea. Unfortunately, due to attitudes at the time, they were segregated and were often sent to the front lines more frequently than white groups (battalions?) This information came from discussions with a war veteran and from the way he presented it, and what I have read and heard since, I believe the account. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/9 "2008-05-22T05:00:35Z")
[QUOTE=John DiFool] Oh how I hate this kind of “litmus test” criticism; just because minority X isn’t on the cast listing doesn’t necessarily mean that anybody associated with the movie is a racist. I wonder if Spike Lee is perfectly happy with the Token character on South Park. [/QUOTE] This is more of Spike’s racist ranting. This is the same man who has stated publicly that white people shouldn’t be allowed to review his films, as there is no way they could ever understand them (some cracker must have given him a bad review). I want to say that he even discouraged white people from seeing his films at all, but I can’t remember… I took that to heart though and, although I have always loved his work, have not supported a theatrical release of one of his films for years. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/10 "2008-05-22T05:50:59Z")
[QUOTE=HubZilla] I was under the impression that before Vietnam, blacks weren’t _usually_ in combat units. They were cooks, laborers, supply, etc. Like Port Chicago and Dorie Miller at Pearl Harbor. [/QUOTE] I don’t know how this relates to combat, but: I have a friend who is African-American, and her father served in the US Army in WWII. His unit was one of those who liberated Nazi concentration camps. However, it was the Black soldiers who had to bury the bodies they found. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/11 "2008-05-22T08:13:15Z")
[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké] However, it was the Black soldiers who had to bury the bodies they found. :eek: [/QUOTE] Were there units within the army specifically there to dig graves? It bugged me when I heard it on Kelly’s Heroes. My first thought was that there was no trench warfare as in WWI, so no heaps of corpses in a nice neat line. But then would you want front line troops burying their own dead beside them (like the French did in WWI apparently). ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/12 "2008-05-22T11:47:19Z")
[QUOTE=Mycroft H.] I’m not sure about World War II but there were definitely a number of black combat troops in Korea. Unfortunately, due to attitudes at the time, they were segregated and were often sent to the front lines more frequently than white groups (battalions?) This information came from discussions with a war veteran and from the way he presented it, and what I have read and heard since, I believe the account. [/QUOTE] Looking at this [site](http://siadapp.dmdc.osd.mil/personnel/CASUALTY/RACE-OMB-WC.pdf) (pdf) it shows that combat deaths in Korea were 8.4% black and 80% white. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/13 "2008-05-22T11:54:12Z")
This is _Spike Lee_ we’re talking about. The fact that he would make this criticism is hardly surprising, and the fact that it would be completely off-base and retarded is even less surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/14 "2008-05-22T12:15:05Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] This is _Spike Lee_ we’re talking about. The fact that he would make this criticism is hardly surprising, and the fact that it would be completely off-base and retarded is even less surprising. [/QUOTE] I was interested in discovering if this was an instant of the blind squirrel finding a nut… evidently not.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Soul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Soul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/15 "2008-05-22T12:46:10Z")
Since the actual question seems to have been answered: I thought it was interesting that one of the articles (on [msn.com](http://msn.com)) reporting on Spike’s comment called _Flags_ a “white only” affair, or something to that effect. Wasn’t half the movie about ol’ whatshisname, the American Indian, trying to become accepted? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/16 "2008-05-22T12:48:49Z")
[QUOTE=HubZilla] I was under the impression that before Vietnam, blacks weren’t _usually_ in combat units. They were cooks, laborers, supply, etc. Like Port Chicago and Dorie Miller at Pearl Harbor. While I know of the Tuskegee Airmen and others, I’d still imagine the percentage of black combat troops vs whites would be very low. [/QUOTE] [This](http://www.nps.gov/archive/wapa/indepth/extContent/usmc/pcn-190-003132-00/sec10.htm) talks about the role black Marines played in Iwo Jima. Basically they were in ammo supply companies. None were front line troops. The Army in the European theater put together black combat units, both ground and air. As far as I have ever read the Marines never did. I’ve been looking but I have only seen mention of a handful of black casualties on Iwo Jima out of the 25,000 that the Marines suffered. Obviously it was a small island and anyone on was in danger, but the fact remains that the role of the black Marine on Iwo Jima was a support role. The fact that the Marines did not allow them in any other role is the fault of the Marines, not Clint Eastwood. ---
**Author:** ![ColonelDax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@ColonelDax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColonelDax)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/17 "2008-05-22T13:53:56Z")
[QUOTE=Pushkin] Were there units within the army specifically there to dig graves? [/QUOTE] Yes, called Graves Registration during World War II, although today it seems to go by the name of [Mortuary Affairs](http://www.qmfound.com/mortuary-affairs.htm). My understanding is that Graves Registration and truck driver were often favored (by the powers that be) slots for blacks during the war. ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/898d66/32.png) [@Mycroft\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_H)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/18 "2008-05-22T14:32:23Z")
**Loach** , the first link (to the percentages of deaths by race) is interesting and informative, but would really only be helpful in evaluating the claim I made if we also knew the percentages of combat troop by race as well. It’s probably out there and you’ve piqued my interest enough to look for it when I get the chance. Your second link is fascinating and I thank you for that as well. I plan to read it properly later. Your statement “The fact that the Marines did not allow them in any other role is the fault of the Marines, not Clint Eastwood.” succinctly hits the nail on the head and points out the ridiculousness of Lee’s argument. Putting blacks into a historical movie (or semi-historical) out of true context is, IMHO, as bad as excluding them from places where blacks truly were. This goes for any group, ethnic or otherwise, as well. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/19 "2008-05-22T15:00:35Z")
[QUOTE=Mycroft H.] **Loach** , the first link (to the percentages of deaths by race) is interesting and informative, but would really only be helpful in evaluating the claim I made if we also knew the percentages of combat troop by race as well. [/QUOTE] That was my thought too. According to [this military web site](http://korea50.army.mil/history/factsheets/afroamer.shtml), in 1950 8% of active duty military personnel were black. the figures were 9.7% for the Army, 4.4% in the Air Force, and about 3% in the Navy and Marines. Based on those figures, **Loach** ’s death percentages suggest that Blacks died in Korea at about the expected rate for their level of participation in the armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159/20 "2008-05-22T15:30:03Z")
I had three uncles of direct mexican descent participate in the D-Day invasion in combat units (2 rangers and 1 in a tank destroyer) and they remarked to me that it was unfair of our country to treat them as second class citizens back home but allow them to face front line duty while the blacks were for the most part given support roles. I’ve also have “official” goverment books issued commemorating my dad’s battleships service during the war and can’t find a single black sailor shown in any of the crew photos. Perhaps they were below deck cooking or taking the pictures. :rolleyes: And btw, when my uncles got back they were still not allowed to eat at their whites only dinner or go to the whites only theater dispite the service to there country. :mad: Upon seeing “Saving Private Ryan” my uncle joked that they didn’t send anyone out to save him! He is suprisingly not bitter about the experiance this country subjected him to back then. Fact is our country was racist as all get out during WWII and Spike Lee just needs to deal with it (but not neccessarily get over it) and move on. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spike-lees-criticism-of-eastwood-black-soldiers-in-wwii/450159.md?page=2)