# Spinoff thread: Mystery Method (Pick-Up Artists): Manipulation or No? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 3, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588 "2008-12-03T23:17:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/101 "2008-12-05T04:14:53Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I suppose “It’s just oogy” isn’t really a good answer, huh? 😃 A better answer would be “It’s just really oogy,” but “It’s just oogy” is good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/102 "2008-12-05T04:35:47Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Jesus, that’s fucking bleak. Also, not accurate. Or, rather, it may be just one more way in which I’m more “the guy” than “the girl”, this thread notwithstanding. > > I’m interested in the book, and I’ll order it from the library. But that quote taken out of context doesn’t ring true for me. ETA: The reason all these mindgames and tests freak me out is because I’m afraid that, secretly, the men doing it are laughing at me, not that they’ll kill me. Yes, please do not say it is not accurate because it isn’t accurate for **YOU**. One in six women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Every two minutes someone in the US is sexually assaulted. An estimated 60% of sexual assaults are not reported to the police. This information is from the U.S. Department of Justice’s National Crime Victimization Survey of 2006. So many women won’t report it because no matter what people claim, there is a stigma attached to victims of sexual violence. Even though my attacker used a glass cutter to enter a window in my then apartment (at around 3am) and beat the hell out of me for three hours doing enough damage to put me in the hospital for a week, the police STILL asked me if I was sure this wasn’t just a disagreement over consensual sex that got out of hand. The only contact I’d ever had with him was as a customer in a business. I didn’t know his name. He got my name and address from the business records. So if the police are going to ask me if (in a round about way) I was sure I wasn’t making more of this, what do you think they’d do to a woman who was raped by someone she knew fairly well? I realize this is far off topic as to the original subject, but numerous rapists were studied in prison to find out how to help women protect themselves. “The Gift of Fear” gives this information in a positive way, but first gives you some stories/statistics to scare you into paying attention. One of the biggest things these men had in common was to test the compliance of their potential victim. Could he get her to help him? Could he get her to say yes after she first said no? Could he get her to keep talking to him when it was obvious she was uncomfortable? Would she allow him to be “helpful” to her, like helping her carry groceries or something like that? This “compliance testing” was used by men who picked a random woman to attack as well as those who had several contacts with the woman. These little tests that these men are doing to test for compliance in order to guess if a woman is interested in him are probably fairly innocent. Maybe they are just wanting to get laid that night and are looking for a girl they can talk into it. Although desperate, it’s not vile. The thing is, as a woman, you can’t be too careful with your own safety. If I found out a guy that I liked had tried this shit with me, he’d be gone with a quickness. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/103 "2008-12-05T04:53:29Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Anything that’s planned, that’s thought up before he met me, is inherintly objectifying. He’s treating me as A Woman or A Hottie or An Acronym With Rating, not as _me_, and developing a plan for his Archetype. Touching my hand because he can’t keep his hands off me? _Me_, personally, not A Woman? Swoony. Touching my hand to test whether or not The Mark is compliant? Icky. > > Asking me to go to coat check with him because he can’t bear to end the evening yet and wants my company? Swoony. Asking me to go to coat check with him as a test of anything at all - compliance, willingness to sleep with him, interest in him as a person - anything but going to the coat check? Icky. > > If you want to know if I’m into you - ASK! Or just be patient and wait for me to tell you. Or tell me that you’re into me. Communicate, for the love of Og. Don’t test me and assume you can interpret the results - just ask! Therein lies the irony. You could have a perfectly nice guy with zero game and he will never get the girl. OTOH, developing some flawless pick-up game is inherently creepy and weird. And by the very nature of doing so, you are likely to start viewing all women as objects to be picked up. > [@WhyNot](#): > > No, she doesn’t. That’s _Lords_. I still find it funny. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/104 "2008-12-05T06:00:14Z")
I had to look it all up. Mystery Man? - chuckleworthy indeed. The pickup master? I’d like to see him pick up Glen Frey with just three lines. The H is O. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/105 "2008-12-05T10:42:48Z")
What **SleepsWithButterflies** said. I don’t think it helps that women are socialised to be more ‘agreeable’ and acquiescent, and that there are social penalties for not being so – see the description of a closed expression as a “bitch face” earlier in the thread. What would we call a man with a closed expression? > [@Autolycus](#): > > Oh, we were talking about dates? There’s a difference between using that line on a date versus at a club. I think I must have misunderstood that Kino test description, then – I thought it was a first-date move. Is it supposed to be used with women you’ve never met but are trying to pull? > [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > IMO the dating scene is mostly about misdirection. I don’t know what the difference is between the ‘dating scene’ and actually dating people in the real world, but I would like my dates to be honest with me, and I try to be honest with them. If I feel that my dates aren’t being honest with me, I don’t go out with them any more. What would be the point? Seriously, why would you want to get into a relationship with someone when you know your first few encounters with them have been an effective lie? I don’t understand this at all. Unless by ‘dating scene’ you mean ‘pulling scene’. **Dating advice sought** threads often reflect precisely that: “I know what I _WANT_ to do, but what _SHOULD_ I do?” They’re seeking advice about whether what’s going on in the OP’s head will be viewed as “acceptable” by the desired person, or for instance whether calling too soon makes them look like pushovers. So maybe he delays his instinct…but he’s withholding who he really is in the hopes of getting a second date. [/QUOTE] If you want to call, call. Generally, if a potential date is interested, she’ll be pleased; if they aren’t, at least you know early. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/106 "2008-12-05T11:51:49Z")
“The most important thing is sincerity. Once you learn how to fake that, you’re golden” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/107 "2008-12-05T12:26:01Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Yes, please do not say it is not accurate because it isn’t accurate for **YOU**. The reason I responded as I did was that you offered the book and that particular quote up in a way that indicated it was Universal Truth. I know that’s not exactly what you meant, but when you write, > [@](#): > > I would advise EVERYONE to read “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin DeBecker. It will help the ladies with a magnitude of issues, and help the men understand why women DO NOT like these “tests” they think are harmless. The book has been praised up and down on these boards (by men and women alike) for good reason, it is an incredible read. If you’re looking for something to buy someone for the holidays, I can’t recommend this book enough. and then follow it up with a sweeping generalization of a quote, you push my Contrarian button and I have to push back. It’s in the username. 😉 > [@](#): > > One in six women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Yep, and one of them is me. Not all rape survivors fear for their physical safety, either. For me, the worst part of the entire experience wasn’t the physical assault, it was the occasion when he manipulated me into a room with a large window, and then forced me to perform sexual acts on him in front of his laughing friends who were outside watching. Their laughter hurt and scared me far worse than anything he did. I don’t think that caused my fear of being secretly laughed at, mind you. I think my attacker knew that was already my worst fear and chose to utilize it. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/108 "2008-12-05T12:28:15Z")
> [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > I think I must have misunderstood that Kino test description, then – I thought it was a first-date move. Is it supposed to be used with women you’ve never met but are trying to pull? That poster will be along to correct if I’m wrong, but yes, I think this is the distinction. It’s used on women you’ve never met before. > [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > I don’t know what the difference is between the ‘dating scene’ and actually dating people in the real world, but I would like my dates to be honest with me, and I try to be honest with them. If I feel that my dates aren’t being honest with me, I don’t go out with them any more. What would be the point? > > Seriously, why would you want to get into a relationship with someone when you know your first few encounters with them have been an effective lie? I don’t understand this at all. Unless by ‘dating scene’ you mean ‘pulling scene’. My bad: “dating” scene is a misnomer. “Mating scene”—hanging out in clubs, looking for a one-night stand, is what Mystery seems to be about. I’ve never heard the term “pull” but suspect it may be a propos. > [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > [broken quote of my post here] > **Dating advice sought** threads often reflect precisely that: “I know what I _WANT_ to do, but what _SHOULD_ I do?” They’re seeking advice about whether what’s going on in the OP’s head will be viewed as “acceptable” by the desired person, or for instance whether calling too soon makes them look like pushovers. So maybe he delays his instinct…but he’s withholding who he really is in the hopes of getting a second date. If you want to call, call. Generally, if a potential date is interested, she’ll be pleased; if they aren’t, at least you know early. [/QUOTE] If it worked, guys wouldn’t hesitate to do it. Case A: The woman was never really interested (or lost interest during the date), and playing Yankee Doodle Dandy on an ass-trumpet while standing on his head isn’t going to save the day. Call, don’t call, the result will be the same. Case B: She’s undecided. If he calls too soon, maybe she thinks he’s needy or pushy or whatever, and that tips the balance against him. Overall I would think women with some experience would not perceive the club scene as a place to meet someone for a relationship, but I’ll defer to the ladies here 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/109 "2008-12-05T12:31:00Z")
Are you sure that this "Mystery"person is actually named that rather then “Creepy”? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/110 "2008-12-05T13:34:16Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I know that’s not exactly what you meant, but when you write, and then follow it up with a sweeping generalization of a quote, you push my Contrarian button and I have to push back. It’s in the username. 😉 However, in context its probably important understand that this IS true for a large number of women - and why this behavior can seem creepy to women. Or why women put up shield and walk out with “bitchface.” There are a subset of women who obviously will take your hand in a pick up situation - and there are women who don’t understand they are in a pick up situation, don’t want to be in a pick up situation, and find you holding out your hand to be creepy. Women are not some homogeneous entity that once you understand one, everything falls in place. They are highly complex individuals - some of whom are trusting, some of whom are not. Some of whom are open to hookups and insulted that you didn’t try - others insulted by the very idea that you’d think they were “that kind of girl.” ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/111 "2008-12-05T15:17:10Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > One which stuck in my mind was one we’d probably call patronizing and perhaps even manipulative. Check out [the first paragraph about Charles Schwab](http://books.google.com/books?id=0KYWs7EdKYMC&pg=PA211), but the same would hold for the second paragraph about John Wanamaker. In both cases they’re using what are essentially guilt trips to change someone’s behavior. In fact, the title of the entire section is “How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment” and I’d be hard pressed to give a better definition of “manipulative.” One thing I noticed about both of these examples, however, is that the people being manipulated were _employees_ who were _fucking up_. In other words, these examples are given as alternatives to chastisement which was deserved. I’m not sure that’s the same thing as manipulating women (or men) at a club. However, there’s a lot to be said for “fake it 'till you make it”. Is it not good advice to tell somebody who isn’t confident to ask themselves “What would \_\_\_ do in this situation?” and then try and do it? I mean, sure, in a sense that isn’t “being yourself”, but what if “yourself” sucks? What if you don’t _want_ to be “yourself” anymore and you want a different self - are you just stuck? Of course not - we’re always giving people advice on how to be more self-confident, how to dress better, etc. So in that sense, I don’t see anything wrong with suggesting behaviors and mannerisms that a man can adopt to fake it until he makes it. On the other hand, these particular mannerisms are gross, sleazy, and offputting. And yes, the operative word is “comply”, and it’s oogy. You won’t get me in bed with you by “negging” me, either. I’ll wander back to my friends kind of confused and tell them the guy in line for the bathroom was a mean asshole. I’m afraid they’ll kill me _and_ laugh at me. Is that paranoid? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/112 "2008-12-05T15:19:28Z")
First of all the “one in six” number is probably bullshit and misleading, unless you equate everything from a stranger grabbing your ass on the subway to rape as “sexual assault”. But that is probably an entire topic in and of itself. > [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > I don’t know what the difference is between the ‘dating scene’ and actually dating people in the real world, but I would like my dates to be honest with me, and I try to be honest with them. It seems to me there is a big difference between the “dating” scene and the “pickup” scene. > [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > If I feel that my dates aren’t being honest with me, I don’t go out with them any more. What would be the point? [Chris Rock’s take on the subject.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH9SckpojCA) “you’re wearing heals…you aint that tall! You’re wearing makeup..you’re face dont look like that!..You’re wearing a Wonderbra…yo tities aint that big!..everything about you is a lie! And you expect me to tell the truth!?” ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/113 "2008-12-05T15:26:10Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > **tdn** , I understand you’re saying this isn’t it and I’m misrepresenting PUA. But then why is this the language used? I kind of feel like this is another Vampire religion thread, only this time I don’t understand the jargon so I’m only able to take it on face value, while those in the know understand the truth. Help me understand, if you will. Well, first of all, thank you very much for attempting to understand rather than simply throwing out accusations. I sincerely appreciate that. There are a few misconceptions still going around, so let me try to explain as many as I can. Why the jargon? Because men use jargon. That’s what we do. Hey, we do that on the Dope as well. If a total stranger read these boards, he or she might well form the impression that we have an inordinate fondness for pie, burning dogs, and saying hi to **Opal**. The problem with that is that it lacks an insider’s perspective. TMM is incredibly heavy on jargon, which some may find offputting, but the solution is not to take it at face value, and to instead seek to understand. Are pickup techniques inherently dishonest? No. Can they be used to find genuine love? Absolutely. The techniques are a tool, nothing more. It’s true that TMM relies heavily on memorized routines (which is one of the problems I have with it). The thing is that these routines can either be false stories or they can be true stories. TMM encourages beginners to use the false stories at first as sort of training wheels, but eventually develop material that’s more authentic and genuine. They stress this again and again. There is always moving towards more truthiness. You won’t see that in Mystery’s TV show because the scope is too small. But they encourage truthful stories for two reasons: One, because they work better. Women can generally tell when you’re lying. Two, because should a relationship develop, you never have to cover your tracks. The relationship is based on honesty. And this point is not an afterthought – it is pointed out early and often. Now I can’t find the post, but was it **Tracy** who mentioned confidence being more attractive than tricks? I absolutely agree. But that’s the thing – these methods strongly stress developing confidence, then using subtle ways to demonstrate it. The thing I like about DD more than TMM is that about 90% is geared towards developing actual, genuine confidence. The end result is increased happiness in general, with a vastly improved love life as a sort of side benefit. Let’s talk about compliance tests for a minute. **Tracy** , you seem to be arguing your point that the explanations given don’t match the OP. Have you considered that the OP may be inaccurate? If you’re going to ask us questions, the polite thing to do would be to at least consider the answers. The truth is, a guy is not trying to get the woman to comply, he is testing for interest. No matter what the OP says, that’s the actual point. So let’s see how a compliance test might play out in real life. Scenario one: A guy approaches a girl. She gives signals that she’s not interested. He keeps hitting on her. Scenario two: A guy approaches a girl. She gives signals that she’s not interested. He either steps down the interaction, or possibly walks away. Which one is better? In the first case, Mr. Clueless didn’t test for compliance, and continued bothering the poor girl. He was, in fact, trying to get her to comply to his wishes with no regard to hers. In the second case, the guy guaged her comfort level and changed his strategy in order to not creep her out. An accomplished PUA is constantly keeping the situation comfortable for everyone. Call this manipulation if you will. A wiser label is “being considerate of others’ feelings.” I hope that sort of demonstrates that it’s the clueless guy who’s being creepy and manipulative. After all, if a PUA only succeeded in making people uncomfortable and creeped out, he wouldn’t be much of a PUA, would he? Lastly (for now), **SWB** , I can’t view that video right now, but I’ll try to look at it later. I suspect it’s the same video I’m thinking of, but maybe it’s not. But in the one I’m thinking of, he never actually says to try that as a line, he just uses it as a thought experiment. If you want (and if I find the time), I can transcribe it for you. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/114 "2008-12-05T15:34:36Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > However, there’s a lot to be said for “fake it 'till you make it”. Is it not good advice to tell somebody who isn’t confident to ask themselves “What would \_\_\_ do in this situation?” and then try and do it? I mean, sure, in a sense that isn’t “being yourself”, but what if “yourself” sucks? What if you don’t _want_ to be “yourself” anymore and you want a different self - are you just stuck? Of course not - we’re always giving people advice on how to be more self-confident, how to dress better, etc. So in that sense, I don’t see anything wrong with suggesting behaviors and mannerisms that a man can adopt to fake it until he makes it. Mm, I agree. I think it’s good to try to put your best foot forward, by translating your good parts, like friendliness and good humor, into common social language, like smiling and cracking appropriate jokes. There’s nothing wrong with self-improvement, or in trying to learn/understand social language better, so that you can communicate with potential partners. But trying to remake yourself into someone you want to be is different than trying to make someone else do what you want them to do. I think I’m also confused about goals. Are these PUAs trying to pick up a woman for meaningless sex (any woman)? Are they trying to pick up a woman for sex (that specific one over there)? Are they trying to find a romantic partner for a long-term relationship? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/115 "2008-12-05T15:41:13Z")
> [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > I think I’m also confused about goals. Are these PUAs trying to pick up a woman for meaningless sex (any woman)? Are they trying to pick up a woman for sex (that specific one over there)? Are they trying to find a romantic partner for a long-term relationship? You’d have to ask the particular PUA. IME most are trying to form something more than a one night stand. That’s not to say that they’re all looking for marriage, kids, and white picket fences, but a good many want genuine connections in a monogamous setting. As far as real self-improvement goes, that’s what DD is all about. In fact, rule #8 (?) is (paraphrased) “Change yourself, don’t try to change others.” ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/116 "2008-12-05T15:52:09Z")
I’m definitely on board with that, but I don’t see how it meshes with the tactics. The tactics are all focused on getting the mark/target woman to do what the PUA wants. I don’t see how the compliance test can be interpreted in any other way than “how much can I control her actions before she tells me to stop?” And I just don’t see how starting off on that foot can lead to a healthy, honest relationship. Unless the third date begins with “Okay, so everything I’ve said and done to you so far has been a lie or a power-play, but now that you’ve spent enough time with me that you hopefully won’t chuck me immediately, can we try getting to know each other for real?” **msmith537** seems to think it’s all about the pull, and I can’t say I disagree with him. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/117 "2008-12-05T15:57:05Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > If a guy felt he wasn’t a natural at this sort of thing then I wouldn’t find the following thought process at all creepy: “Maybe this woman I’m talking to is interested in me. I’ll put my hand out, and if she takes it then that’s a good sign. Okay, great! I’ll squeeze and if she squeezes back, that’s a really good sign. Super great! But I don’t want to come on too strong too fast, so I’m going to let her hand go now.” Now, if the guy were awkward or clumsy about it then he could possibly still come across as creepy, but he wouldn’t be creepy in his heart. I hope this doesn’t come off as snarky, but that’s an awesome idea. Wouldn’t it be great if guys could learn that stuff and use it in a responsible way to meet women? Hey, we could even package it and present is as something called, oh, let’s say “Pickup 101.” > [@](#): > > I really don’t know what else he could have meant. Yes you do. You explained in nicely in the quoted bit above. Don’t be put of by the word “comply.” It honestly is not “I’m going to force her to comply”, it’s “I want to see how compliant she is, to see if I’m on the right track.” This has been explained again and again, but you want to shoehorn it into your original definition despite all explanations. I really want to bridge this gap in understanding. What else can I do to facilitate that? ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/118 "2008-12-05T15:58:16Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Wouldn’t it be great if guys could learn that stuff and use it in a responsible way to meet women? No. That’s the creepy bit, when it becomes a learned tactic rather than a natural impulse. > [@](#): > > “I want to see how compliant she is, to see if I’m on the right track.” Possibly the understanding gap is that I (and **Lamia** , presumably, and others) don’t think that a woman being compliant _is_ “the right track”? > [@msmith537](#): > > First of all the “one in six” number is probably bullshit and misleading, unless you equate everything from a stranger grabbing your ass on the subway to rape as “sexual assault”. But that is probably an entire topic in and of itself. [Attempted or complete rape](http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims), according to RAINN. So, that number doesn’t include sexual harrassment, only assault. If you want to start another thread about that, I’ll happily join you there. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/119 "2008-12-05T16:01:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > First of all the “one in six” number is probably bullshit and misleading, unless you equate everything from a stranger grabbing your ass on the subway to rape as “sexual assault”. But that is probably an entire topic in and of itself. A stranger grabbing your ass - for the purposes of women being wary of men - is sexual assault. It really doesn’t matter if the reason a women things certain behavior is creepy is because the guy on the subway stands over her and looks down her shirt every morning or because she was brutally raped by an acquaintence - if her reaction is to say “a subset of men are creepy - and these are creepy triggers” - the root cause is the same to Mr. Pickup. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/120 "2008-12-05T16:11:10Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Are pickup techniques inherently dishonest? No. Can they be used to find genuine love? Absolutely. The techniques are a tool, nothing more. It’s true that TMM relies heavily on memorized routines (which is one of the problems I have with it). The thing is that these routines can either be false stories or they can be true stories. TMM encourages beginners to use the false stories at first as sort of training wheels, but eventually develop material that’s more authentic and genuine. They stress this again and again. There is always moving towards more truthiness. You won’t see that in Mystery’s TV show because the scope is too small. But they encourage truthful stories for two reasons: One, because they work better. Women can generally tell when you’re lying. Two, because should a relationship develop, you never have to cover your tracks. The relationship is based on honesty. And this point is not an afterthought – it is pointed out early and often. Thank you! So it sounds like the answer is, “Well, that was sort of a poorly written example in the OP, but it works for a newsletter aimed at beginners. As you learn more (and only a little more) honesty and authentic communication is stressed as very important for a good relationship.” Fair summation? It strikes me even more as similar to the Vampire/Satanism threads: the language used is off-putting and sounds oogy, but just a little more education and expoloration of the topic, and you begin to understand that the ooginess is not the point. In fact, sometimes I think a wise person uses language like this on seekers intentionally, as it may hook in the very people who need the advice the most. A man looking for “compliant” women may very well have dating problems. Reading that newsletter, perhaps he’d be hooked because it appears to empower him in the direction he thinks he wants to go, only then you teach how to be an empathetic human being instead. Although, again, like Vapirism and Satanism, some oogy people choose to stay at that superficial level of operation, and then give everyone else in the field a bad name. > [@](#): > > Let’s talk about compliance tests for a minute. **Tracy** , you seem to be arguing your point that the explanations given don’t match the OP. Have you considered that the OP may be inaccurate? If you’re going to ask us questions, the polite thing to do would be to at least consider the answers. The truth is, a guy is not trying to get the woman to comply, he is testing for interest. No matter what the OP says, that’s the actual point. > > So let’s see how a compliance test might play out in real life. Scenario one: A guy approaches a girl. She gives signals that she’s not interested. He keeps hitting on her. Scenario two: A guy approaches a girl. She gives signals that she’s not interested. He either steps down the interaction, or possibly walks away. Which one is better? In the first case, Mr. Clueless didn’t test for compliance, and continued bothering the poor girl. He was, in fact, trying to get her to comply to his wishes with no regard to hers. In the second case, the guy guaged her comfort level and changed his strategy in order to not creep her out. An accomplished PUA is constantly keeping the situation comfortable for everyone. Call this manipulation if you will. A wiser label is “being considerate of others’ feelings.” > > I hope that sort of demonstrates that it’s the clueless guy who’s being creepy and manipulative. After all, if a PUA only succeeded in making people uncomfortable and creeped out, he wouldn’t be much of a PUA, would he? And, again, THANK YOU. This makes a lot more sense, without being at all icky. I have very little problem with the whole thing if we just use the word “interested” instead of “compliant” and “let go” instead of “dismissive toss.” I think perhaps you, **tdn** , would be a far better teacher of this stuff in an ethical manner than Mystery. (Unless you just played me, playa! 😉 ) And thanks for coming back into the thread. I didn’t get a lot from your first post besides anger and outrage. I feel like this time I got educated. Much nicer. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588.md?page=7)