Spinoff thread: Mystery Method (Pick-Up Artists): Manipulation or No?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

Anyone who wants to see Mystery in action might as well watch this (Paul Rudd’s impression of him).

In reality, or at least on the show, most of the guys are sort of pathetic and could really use some help talking to women. Or, really, people in general. It’s sad that there’s such a huge distinction made between these groups. Talk to women you want to fuck one way, talk to actual human beings another. It is quite a bit like The Rules in that you’re being taught all these rules and tricks and the actual other person involved is secondary.

The funny thing is, The Game, the Mystery Method and their spawn are so popular many women can now sense when a guy has been a student. Seriously, he’ll be an ass for a few minutes and she’ll be like, ‘Waaait, are you trying to neg me? Fuck off.’ I think there was a piece in the NY Times about it.

22

Like I said, the overweight thing is a huge turn off for him. That’s not me being angsty and low self-esteemy, that’s his thing. Oh well, his loss!

On a lighter note, I’m all swoony over Patrick Jane on The Mentalist; he could use all these tricks on me and I wouldn’t care one bit! :smiley:

23

I think to a degree you are missing the intent. Now, I’ll be the first to admit for a lot of people the intent of this PUA stuff is to get laid that night. However, for a lot of guys like myself the point is to build the interest/attraction in that initial meeting which opens up her agreeing to go on that date. I don’t do the PUA thing but I’ve considered it. My problem, as I’ve mentioned before, is not with being myself on a date. There are a bazillion other people out there, but if you don’t know how to attract them then you don’t get to the date part. I can see how some of the techniques would help in that regard.

MeanJoe

24

Yeah. I guess I’m supposed to see these great alpha males and envy their success, but what I do see is a bunch of little boys desperate for approval from other little boys.

25

I think I get it.

This reminds me of CBT, or like the physical therapy they used to call “patterning”. What I understand Autolycus to be trying to do is improve himself - just like folks do when they go to the gym, or take a French class. He’s using these tactics of the PUA community as a way to “pattern” himself, so that his nature will change in a positive way - he will become more likeable. If he works on the mental and emotional parts of becoming more likeable while he follows these “cookbook” methods of appearing to be, he’s likely to have success.

It’s kind of like working from the outside, while working from the inside. He will break through faster.

This may or may not bear any resemblance to what the Mystery Method thing is intended for.

Does that sound right, Autolycus?

26

Sounds right to me NinetyWt. Back in my single days when I experienced dry spells and lamented about them, people often gave the advice that I should “Stop trying so hard and just be myself.” Unfortunately, they usually didn’t specify what this meant and because it was pre-internet time, I didn’t have a wealth of information to consult. So ocassionally, I was lonesome and clueless.

If only there had been a method (program / whatever) that could’ve helped. And that’s what I see this sort of thing as. Judging solely from the excerpts listed here, I wouldn’t have any problem being a woman on the receiving end of these kinds of tactics if… 1.) it was something the user was actually attempting to learn rather than duplicate as necessary and 2.) not trotted as solely as to land me in bed. If the latter is the agenda, I’d prefer that to be up front with no time wasted on silly games.

Ultimately, I see no harm if you’re discerning and he’s trying to BE the change he seeks.

27

Right on the money. Thank you for so eloquently expressing something that I was having trouble thinking about in a clear and simple fashion :cool:

28

Oh no, I get the intent. The intent is to sell their BS to guys who think they need to use scams to pick up a HB. Oh yes, that’s their little cute term for a hot babe/hot bitch. Then there are the ratings they give women, including their girl-friends (wingman) they aren’t interested in. They go out with these women to clubs to show they have “social proof” that they are cool enough for the ladies to hang with. Extra bonus if their girl-friends bring their girlfriends for him to choose from. It adds “new bodies” to the mix for him to peruse. Hilarious stuff, seriously.

Look at this lovely list of their acronyms. Seriously, pathetic: FS Home - Fast Seduction

No matter what spin you want to put on it, it’s still pretending. For the record, I don’t agree with “The Rules” or any pretending that women do. Of course we want to be on our “best behavior” when we are getting to know people, but to use these dimbulbs as people to mimic?

The forums here are especially funny to read.

Excellent summary.

29

Aren’t we all just pretending though? I don’t mean all the time, but don’t we all like to project an image of ourselves that doesn’t necessarily reflect who we are deep down, who are when we know nobody else is looking or cares?

Claim these guys are bad to pretend to be, but don’t knock pretending itself. The world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players.

For the record, I browsed that acronym page, and I didn’t get a pathetic vibe. I got a casual, ‘bunch of guys sitting around, having beers and watching football’ vibe. It might seem childish to you, but it doesn’t necessarily mean what they write is wrong. I’m just skimming the surface of their little community, but I’m willing to delve a little deeper to see what all the hubbub is about.

30

Take it easy, Shakespeare. Didn’t I already say that we always want to be on our best behavior when first meeting people? Yep, I sure did. There’s such a thing as taking it too far.

This stuff is no better than “The Rules” that women were using a few years ago. Trickery, no matter how you look at it. I honestly believe this kind of stuff is a lot of the reason that so many people end up saying “This is not the guy/girl I first got to know!” and wondering why things didn’t work out.

It’s one thing to give people confidence and say things like: if you find someone attractive you should try to talk to her rather than regret it later, have a funny story/experience to tell to get conversation rolling, ask about their job/interest/etc to get her talking. Those are some pretty generic tips that may give a guy confidence and get him talking to more women. The more women you talk to, the more chances of getting a date.

These guys are talking about rating just about every women you come into contact with. Using your friends to help you “soften girls up” so they’ll go out with you, say things that almost paint her into a corner (there’s a seriously pathetic thread where guys talk about flirting with a waitress because she can’t be mean to her, it’s her job and how she gets tips), giving backhanded compliments “Your hair is really pretty, it’s not real, right?” to get her talking/defending herself. Seriously, there’s just a lot of bad stuff there.

Now that I’ve read it, I can clearly see the steps this dickhole of a guy used with me one day at the grocery store. Some of these guys are training themselves as if they are telemarketers . They wait for 3 or 4 nos before they quit. This guy was one more stupid come-on away from a platform sneaker to the nards.

There was one "tip about hitting up girls especially in non-dating type places because the girls are then less likely to have their “bitch shields” up.

That kind of things sounds good?

31

I’m cool with some of what you described above, while some is indeed pretty lame. I guess as in all things, moderation is the key. Seeing as there is no other online community in existence that I’m aware of which is based around helping men learn the ins and outs of dating and/or female psychology, I guess I’ll just have to sift through the shit for myself. I’m fine with that.

Oh, and while I agree that the term is offensive, I believe in the ‘bitch shield.’ I see cute girls all the time who walk through life with a scowl, looking like they’d rip the balls off any guy who approached them. If you did want to flirt with a girl like that, it’s no easy task.

32

There’s a huge difference between *your *best behaviour and the ‘fast seduction techniques’ bought from a marketing company.

Do you want to impress other guys with the number of hot bitches you’ve fucked (the marketed objective) , or do you want a good relationship with a woman who likes who you are (your stated objective)?

They are not the same thing and can’t be achieved using the same methods.

33

Oh I believe in it too. I’m honing my skills with it.

34

I’m confused as to why you’d want to flirt with a girl like that. Is “bitchy” a quality you’re looking for in a long-term relationship?

35

Most likely because they get hit on by guys trying to use those manipulative PUA ‘tactics’ all the time, and are trying to deflect it before it happens? I know I do that when I’m grocery shopping/in a hurry and don’t want to have to deal with unwanted attention that’s going to take five or six "no"s to brush off.

36

Now THAT makes sense, and gets all my kudos and wishes for good luck. However:

Exactly. Given the sort of stuff Sleeps With Butterflies linked to, I don’t think that’s exactly what the PUA community as a whole has in mind.

Man, I’m gonna have Tom Cruise’s *Magnolia *character shouting in my head all day, I can tell…

37

There’s too much going on in this thread for me to reply to everything I want to, but I’ll say this to WHYNOT: If you want to feel better (maybe) about the whole PUA community, there’s a true-story book called “The Game” by Neil Strauss who was a student of Mystery. He writes about his experience from chump to master pickup artist.

The best parts are about living with Mystery and other PUA’s and the slow realization that while all these guys are getting laid, they are leading miserable lives. Even Mystery gets hospitalized for depression (twice!). It just goes to show that while there are positives to take away from these teachings, it doesn’t necessarily lead to happiness. Regardless of what you think of Mystery and PUA’s in general, it’s a fascinating read. They even had it at my local library!

Also, to Eureka, you sound like a female version of me. Hang in there. hug

38

You’re quite welcome. It’s the result of years of therapy, mind you. :wink:

39

I’m responding to this thread because I was asked, privately, to do so. Frankly, I might have a hard time of it, because the ignorance displayed here is thick, deep, and steaming. And it’s pissing me off.

Looks like my task for the day is fighting ignorance. I think it’s going to be an uphill battle. But feel free to ask me questions. I think I’m pretty well-versed on the subject.

That is not to say that I’m any sort of expert. I just haven’t logged the hours sarging the babes, partly because, by using a very small number of these techniques, I’ve managed to meet the most wonderful woman in the universe. Yes, I’ve manipulated her into a fantastic relationship. How oogy of me!

But I’ve read Mystery’s book, as well as looking at products of a handful of other dating gurus. My favorite is David DeAngelo, because his stuff really speaks to me, and most closely aligns with my sense of ethics. Most of what I’ll post is from that perspective.

So let’s fight some ignorance here.

-It’s not about manipulation. It’s about stopping being manipulative. What do you think buying flowers is all about? Or telling a woman that she’s beautiful? Dating technique is ultimately about being more direct, more honest, and more forthright. Some of the techniques may seem counter-intuitive at first, until you understand why and how they work.

-Women are all shrinking flowers who would never lie, manipulate, or test, right? Bullshit. Women test men all the time, and it’s largely subconscious. A huge lot of pickup technique is learning how to pass those tests.

-Pickup technique is not about tricking women into sleeping with you. It’s about putting your best foot forward in order to make a good impression. It’s not about taking something from a woman – it’s about giving something to her. It’s about not being the same old boring loser that she’s used to, but about giving her what she really wants – a clued in guy who knows how to turn her on.

When I was on my third date with my GF, I decided to confess to her that I was studying these materials. I wasn’t sure how she’d respond to it. Would she think it was “oogy”? As it turns out, her response was “Hallelujah!” I think she felt lucky to finally meet a guy who actually had a clue about how to treat her. She found it a refreshing change.

-Kino is something that happens naturally in the dating world. We all do it. Unless you are of the belief that one should go from hello straight to fucking (and that’s not creepy?), normally there will be some kissing, preceded by hugging, preceded by hand holding. Yes, these are tests. So fucking what? Isn’t it better to test each other for mutual interest rather than diving straight into sex?

Kino tests are NORMAL.

-Getting past the bitch shield is just a fact of life. Most really attractive women are used to getting hit on many times every day. It’s an understandable defense. In my experience, most women welcome a come-on that’s sincere, original, and flattering. It’s the barrage of bore that turns most women off.

-The word “pathetic” is being thorwn about a lot. OK, maybe it’s pathetic to give beautiful women mind-blowing orgasms. Guess what’s even more pathetic? How about NOT giving beautiful women mind-blowing orgasms?

-It’s great to say “just be yourself.” The problem is, for many people, just being themselves doesn’t get results. How about realizing your full potential? That’s really what it’s all about.

I’m happy to answer any burning questions you may have on the topic. You have but to ask. But please, leave your negativity and judgements out of it.

40

Great book. I’ve read it through twice. Being a PUA ruined friendships and became more of an obsession than anything. It consumed them, and almost destroyed some of them as well.