# Splitting the Difference--Dead Thread for The Split **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 18, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357 "2009-02-18T03:10:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/141 "2009-03-10T14:33:57Z")
And I still don’t get the reason behind **Zeriel’s** refusal to reveal any investigation info, _unless_ he’s scum. And really, it’s looking more and more like he might be. He’s a _claimed_ Power Role, that has inexplicably survived _two Nights_ since his claim, for pete’s sake. How is he not Eaten yet? And how has town not pounced onto that fact like a dog on steak? A few people have brought it up, but then it gets ignored. He’s not only a claimed Power Role, but he’s refusing to share _any_ information about his investigations with the Town. How is this pro-town behavior? I mean, I know in the mafiascum boards, once you’ve been “outed” as an Investigative role, there’s _no_ advantage to town if you keep your mouth shut. It’s not like the Werewolves are going to get any useful info out of “ok, I investigated these 3 people and they came back as Rancher, Rancher, Farmer”. The WW already _know_ who’s Town! And, from ped’s post: > [@](#): > > The werewolves win if they outnumber the remaining town. Nothing about “Rancher Wolves win if they outnumber Town And Farmer Wolves”, or vice versa, although I suppose it’s possible. I still have no idea what the Testerizer means, either. Summary of results: Red & Green: November, Farmer Aqua & Teal: Freudian, Rancher Black & Purple: Seeker, Farmer Hey, it’s a bruise! ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/142 "2009-03-10T16:20:10Z")
> [@DogMom](#): > > And I still don’t get the reason behind **Zeriel’s** refusal to reveal any investigation info, _unless_ he’s scum. And really, it’s looking more and more like he might be. > > He’s a _claimed_ Power Role, that has inexplicably survived _two Nights_ since his claim, for pete’s sake. How is he not Eaten yet? And how has town not pounced onto that fact like a dog on steak? A few people have brought it up, but then it gets ignored. I haven’t been reading the game thread closely, but I have a rough idea of the events. I agree that Zeriel insisting on not revealing investigation results is weird, but I have trouble seeing how that behavior is scum motivated. If I recall, Zeriel roleclaimed at a point where there wasn’t any threat to him. So why lie? Also, why make up a lie that you can’t back up? I don’t see why scum would do such an action, so I don’t see the logic in killing Zeriel for it. As for why the werewolves haven’t killed Zeriel, the reason is fairly simple. The role, as claimed, is harmless to Wolves. The only reason wolves would want to kill Zeriel is if they knew he was lying and had powers that could reveal wolves, which isn’t something the wolves should know. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/143 "2009-03-10T16:26:50Z")
Plus, if they don’t kill **Zeriel** , people will start to ask “Why hasn’t he died” and maybe townie will do the work for them and lynch him as scum. If all **Z** can do is reveal farm or ranch, him revealing won’t really help anyone. Except himself if he wants to kill off people who aren’t in his faction. ---
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/144 "2009-03-10T16:38:03Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I haven’t been reading the game thread closely, but I have a rough idea of the events. I agree that Zeriel insisting on not revealing investigation results is weird, but I have trouble seeing how that behavior is scum motivated. If I recall, Zeriel roleclaimed at a point where there wasn’t any threat to him. So why lie? Also, why make up a lie that you can’t back up? I don’t see why scum would do such an action, so I don’t see the logic in killing Zeriel for it. It’s easy enough to lie, and lots of scum do it to make it look like they’re one of the “good guys”, and to gain trust so they can steer the voting and discussions a little better. Credence is given to their statements, and they’re usually given a pass later on in the game. I just don’t get why he roleclaimed _at all_ if he’s Town. Normally Investigators just don’t, until they have to. I tend to mistrust random, out-of-the-blue role claims like he made, for specifically that reason. If he was TOWN and claimed then, why? What’s the motivation? It’s not going to help town, because if he’s got an Incredibly Useful To Town power role, he’s just bumped himself up to Target #1 for the Nightkill. If it’s NOT an Incredibly Useful Power Role, then why claim if he’s going to stonewall and say, “yeah, I have a power role, but it’s not useful so I’m not going to bother saying anything more about it except that I have it.” Seriously, why claim **at all** if there’s no useful information being given with his claim (or as the result of his claim)? > [@](#): > > As for why the werewolves haven’t killed Zeriel, the reason is fairly simple. The role, as claimed, is harmless to Wolves. The only reason wolves would want to kill Zeriel is if they knew he was lying and had powers that could reveal wolves, which **isn’t something the wolves should know.** **IF** he’s what he claims to be. Otherwise, it’s a great play for scum to hide behind. “It won’t help anyway, so why should I open the bag?” If enough people believe that, then he’s off the hook and doesn’t have to back it up with any kind of role-pointing. That’s the problem - believing Zeriel’s claim relies solely on…well…_believing Zeriel’s claim_. He’s got nothing to support it other than his word. I’d say that was a _highly_ effective ploy if he’s scum, because he is being believed. He’s saying now that “trust me, my results won’t help you.” Trust isn’t exactly the point of this game…_snicker_ ---
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/145 "2009-03-10T16:40:13Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Plus, if they don’t kill **Zeriel** , people will start to ask “Why hasn’t he died” and maybe townie will do the work for them and lynch him as scum. True, although it hasn’t happened so far, and there are a couple people popping up on the radar, like **Telcontar** and **Elendil’s Heir** that people are looking suspiciously at. Interesting. > [@](#): > > If all **Z** can do is reveal farm or ranch, him revealing won’t really help anyone. Except himself if he wants to kill off people who aren’t in his faction. Exactly…so I still question his motives in revealing his role at all. ---
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/146 "2009-03-10T16:50:25Z")
Come to think of it, since my experiences at mafiascum have taught me that my Scumdar is likely so mis-calibrated as to be completely useless, **Zeriel** probably is completely town, completely telling the truth, and just did a weird claim for shits & giggles. Because I completely agree - **if** he is telling the truth, then there’s no reason whatsoever for him to say anything about his investigations and the results, as yet. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/147 "2009-03-10T16:58:48Z")
> [@DogMom](#): > > **IF** he’s what he claims to be. Otherwise, it’s a great play for scum to hide behind. “It won’t help anyway, so why should I open the bag?” If enough people believe that, then he’s off the hook and doesn’t have to back it up with any kind of role-pointing. If you assume Zeriel is a Wolf, then one of two things must be true. - Either Zeriel lied and is therefore unable to produce results in which case the roleclaim is a remarkably stupid move for scum to make, - Or Zeriel is both a Wolf and does have the capability of producing results, but is merely choosing not to. Why on Earth would a Wolf choose to do this? If Zeriel has access to the information, he could reveal it freely with no damage to Wolves, and more importantly, avoid unwanted attention. On the other hand, if you assume Zeriel is Town, then everything is easily explained: - The game is a new setup, optimal time to roleclaim is not yet determined - Zeriel is not a threat to wolves, so there isn’t a high danger in roleclaiming - Not understanding why a Townie does something is not a good reason to think someone is Scum. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/148 "2009-03-10T17:02:09Z")
> [@DogMom](#): > > Come to think of it, since my experiences at mafiascum have taught me that my Scumdar is likely so mis-calibrated as to be completely useless, **Zeriel** probably is completely town, completely telling the truth, and just did a weird claim for shits & giggles. > > Because I completely agree - **if** he is telling the truth, then there’s no reason whatsoever for him to say anything about his investigations and the results, as yet. I agree–it’s bizarre. But then what reason did **Seeker** have for that false role claim that seemed so suspicious? ---
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/149 "2009-03-10T17:04:08Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I agree–it’s bizarre. But then what reason did **Seeker** have for that false role claim that seemed so suspicious? Dunno - but you’ll notice both of them were very much believed. In any case, it’ll be interesting to see what comes of it all. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/150 "2009-03-10T17:26:26Z")
> [@DogMom](#): > > It’s easy enough to lie, and lots of scum do it to make it look like they’re one of the “good guys”, and to gain trust so they can steer the voting and discussions a little better. Credence is given to their statements, and they’re usually given a pass later on in the game. > I just don’t get why he roleclaimed _at all_ if he’s Town. Normally Investigators just don’t, until they have to. I tend to mistrust random, out-of-the-blue role claims like he made, for specifically that reason. If he was TOWN and claimed then, why? What’s the motivation? It’s not going to help town, because if he’s got an Incredibly Useful To Town power role, he’s just bumped himself up to Target #1 for the Nightkill. If it’s NOT an Incredibly Useful Power Role, then why claim if he’s going to stonewall and say, “yeah, I have a power role, but it’s not useful so I’m not going to bother saying anything more about it except that I have it.” > > … It may be worth noting that when **Zeriel** made his claim, he invited his “opposite number” to investigate him. I did. Then I ended up dead. Now, this could be a spectacular coincidence, and I’m not willing to discard that possibility considering how vocal I was that Day, but… yeah. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/151 "2009-03-10T17:45:20Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > It may be worth noting that when **Zeriel** made his claim, he invited his “opposite number” to investigate him. I did. Then I ended up dead. Now, this could be a spectacular coincidence, and I’m not willing to discard that possibility considering how vocal I was that Day, but… yeah. Did anyone else die? If you were the only one to die I would chalk it up to coincidence. Wolves don’t care that a farmer/rancher investigator died, they would only care if a town/wolf investigator died. I don’t see the motivation for an elaborate plot to kill off a particular farmer/rancher investigator. Especially since doing so would negate a shot at a Doc or town/wolf investigator. ---
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/152 "2009-03-10T17:48:19Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > **Did anyone else die?** If you were the only one to die I would chalk it up to coincidence. You mean that Night? Wolves only get one kill per Night. Has anyone else died since then? Yes, **[Undecided] Adrian** has, which has been pointed out as a completely random, out-of-the blue Nightkill. > [@](#): > > Wolves don’t care that a farmer/rancher investigator died, they would only care if a town/wolf investigator died. I don’t see the motivation for an elaborate plot to kill off a particular farmer/rancher investigator. Especially since doing so would negate a shot at a Doc or town/wolf investigator. Except that **pedescribe** has said that the Power Roles aren’t all that Powerful…which would pretty much put the kibosh on a Doc or Wolf Investigator. ---
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/153 "2009-03-10T18:25:45Z")
[Hah! Substance! Yay!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10923142&postcount=1097) And hey, despite what I’ve been saying in here, I’m not married to the idea that Zeriel is scum. I have no flipping clue, actually. Obviously. But w00t, analysis and _everything_. Go fluiddruid! ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/154 "2009-03-10T18:55:05Z")
I tend to believe **Zeriel** , for the following reasoning. Already discussed: We know that the “alignment cop” role exists, because **Ichini** ’s death verified it. This ability doesn’t help town-as-a-whole against the wolves, but it does help a particular side (Farmer/Rancher). Therefore, it can be assumed that for proper game balance, **Ichini** had a Rancher counterpart. The wolves may or may not have someone with this power; there’s no way to be sure. My own two cents: if **Zeriel** is lying, or is the wolves’ alignment cop, I can’t imagine any pro-town reason why **Ichini** ’s _real_ townie counterpart (who, remember, we assume is out there somewhere) wouldn’t have claimed by now. At worst, he’d have a 50/50 chance of getting himself lynched if he couldn’t build a case for himself as town and **Z** as scum…but even if he ended up hung, his death would nigh-ensure the successful lynching of a wolf, which the town desperately needs. Of course, the ideal time to do this would have been immediately following **Ichini** ’s death and the “one cop per side” deduction, but anytime would be better than never. Thus, I think **Zeriel** is telling the truth. If it turns out he IS scum, then the Rancher alignment cop is going to have a whole lot of ‘splainin’ to do. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/155 "2009-03-10T19:26:22Z")
Yeah, your reasoning is sound, **Roland**. **Zeriel** could go either way but I can’t really make an assumption on him. **Elendil** ’s whole, “Hmmm, those wolves are tricky!” post back a while ago seemed kind of suspect–very half-heartedly trying to throw suspicion of himself. ---
**Author:** ![Seeker\_of\_Truth\_and\_Beauty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Seeker\_of\_Truth\_and\_Beauty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seeker_of_Truth_and_Beauty)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/156 "2009-03-10T22:40:40Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I agree–it’s bizarre. But then what reason did **Seeker** have for that false role claim that seemed so suspicious? No real reason – I wanted to see what would happen; it seemed like a good idea at the time. Obviously, I suck at this game so far. I’m in two others; if I don’t get any better _real quick_ I’m gonna chuck it all in. I think I’d like being a Mod for a game, though – do you have to be good at the game to run it?? ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/157 "2009-03-11T02:03:55Z")
I don’t see why the skillset needed to be a Mod would neccessarily be the same as being good at playing Mafia. Especially given the tendency for good players to be killed early sometimes. Note that as neither an experienced Mod or Player, I’m probably totally unqualified to offer these opinions. To be a Mod, one should have some understanding of typical player behavior–players often react differently than their Mods expect, but to design and balance a game some understanding of typical behavior is useful. Of course, you can often get volunteers to critic your set-up just by asking, and really, I think there’s been some evidence that more complicated rule sets fascinate people but don’t neccessarily improve enjoyment of the game. Though too simple games don’t always work either. You also should have access to off-board sites–not being a mod I can’t tell you how many people have such access, though I gather it isn’t hard to set up. Still, knowledge of how such things work or access to an “expert” is recommended. Consistent computer access from now through the projected end of your game–if people get mad when a player is missing for a few days, imagine what they’d be like if the Mod is missing for a few days. Of course, getting a co-mod can help with that. Ability to tell stories or write “color” is nice but not required–some mods put more emphasis there than others. And a good understanding of the quirks of your ruleset so that when players come up with questions or loopholes you can answer consistently. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/158 "2009-03-11T04:43:39Z")
> [@Werewolf (Mafia)--The Split \[Signups--In progress\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/werewolf-mafia-the-split-signups-in-progress/485692/1125): > > But then there is the strategy posts. For both **Seeker** and **FS** Oredigger argued against voting for these people - once their vote counts were so high that lynching was almost guaranteed. It certainly looks good, defending people who turn out to be innocent - but the wolves _knew_ that they were innocent, and that trying to save them was likely a lost cause. I think this is a really good point about **Oredigger**. It’s a possible reason to suspect him. I’m glad Town is looking to lots of suspects instead of just all jumping on one bandwagon. Makes it harder to hide. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Klutz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captain_klutz/32/4993_2.png) [@Captain\_Klutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Klutz)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/159 "2009-03-11T13:11:38Z")
> [@DogMom](#): > > Seriously, why claim **at all** if there’s no useful information being given with his claim (or as the result of his claim)? He _did_ offer useful information in his [claim](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10881497&postcount=720): he revealed that scum do have rancher/farmer status. ---
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357/160 "2009-03-11T13:25:10Z")
> [@Captain\_Klutz](#): > > He _did_ offer useful information in his [claim](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10881497&postcount=720): he revealed that scum do have rancher/farmer status. Oh ho ho ho. You’re correct. And that’s been missed by _several_ people. Deliberately? [MHaye](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10920670&postcount=1067) and [Mahaloth](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10920811&postcount=1069) most recently. [And, apparently, Jimmy Chitwood](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10920644&postcount=1066). Interestingly, [Pedescribe says it’ll **unduly alter the gamestate** if he says whether or not Wolves have Farmer / Rancher alignment.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10921022&postcount=1072) So either **Zeriel** is lying through his sharp pointy teeth and **pedescribe** refuses to answer the question because it would reveal that **Zeriel** lied, OR **Zeriel** is True-Blue Townsperson and **pedescribe** refuses to answer the question because it would reveal that **Zeriel** is who he says he is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/splitting-the-difference-dead-thread-for-the-split/486357.md?page=9)